Evidence of meeting #5 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cattle.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dennis Laycraft  Executive Vice-President, Canadian Cattlemen's Association
John Masswohl  Director, Governmental and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

I call this meeting to order.

I'd like to start off by welcoming our guests from the Canadian Cattlemen's Association, Mr. Masswohl and Mr. Laycraft.

Thanks very much for coming at fairly short notice. We do appreciate that.

For the committee's information, we also tried to have the Canadian Pork Council here today and they couldn't come at short notice, but they are booked for next Thursday. And of course the NFU is here on Tuesday.

Before we get started, we do have some business to take care of, and perhaps I could suggest that maybe at quarter to one, if questioning is done by then, we could move to that.

Anyway, we'll start. Mr. Laycraft, are you going to start?

11:10 a.m.

Dennis Laycraft Executive Vice-President, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

I guess so.

First of all, thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the invitation. And congratulations on your appointment, and to all members of the committee.

We greatly appreciate the fact that you are looking at competitiveness. We feel that's obviously an important thrust.

The past few times we've been in front of the committee we have talked about business risk management issues. They're still very real. It's not our intent to get into that today, but if there are questions we'd be happy to answer.

As we speak, there will be an announcement in Saskatchewan. We were just informed of a $40-per-head payout there, which in our mind continues to indicate that there are still deficiencies in that area that we need to address nationally so we don't end up with a proliferation of provincial programs. To us, a national approach is always the most important way to address these issues, and we'll continue to say that.

We do intend to talk a bit about country-of-origin labelling. It is very fresh and a very significant issue impacting our industry and the pork industry. And we agree it would have been ideal to have had the pork producers here with us. We work very closely with them.

When we speak about competitiveness—and I had the opportunity a number of years ago to help chair part of a working group on the competitiveness council that existed—it really is a combination of what it costs to produce a product and what type of value we can generate from the markets around the world.

We're an export-oriented industry. We export, and have traditionally exported, to close to 60 countries around the world. That access remains impaired, but nevertheless it remains very important to us.

On the customer perception point of view, Canadian beef is well respected around the world. And we have an excellent reputation. We are the largest exporter of grain-fed beef in the world. I want to emphasize that that is our strength: producing high-quality beef. We're not going to compete on a cost basis with South America. South America has been growing. They're traditionally and typically now servicing markets like Russia and Europe in a very significant way.

We are building on our reputation. We have a global marketing strategy where we're looking at different markets around the world. And when we talk about the significance, I'll come back to why getting certain products to certain customers becomes extremely important to the bottom line, not just of the beef industry, but to every cattle producer in this country.

Our beef advantage initiative, which, again, we'd be happy to answer questions about, is really a main thrust of our global marketing strategy. We can circulate copies of a very comprehensive document on that. We're building on that reputation and intend to be a leader in quality, service, safety, and animal health. And certainly Canada has a reputation for veterinary infrastructure. While we've had challenges with BSE and getting markets open, in virtually every market that has reopened we've exceeded pre-BSE sales into those markets, with the exception of Japan, where simply the age requirement is so restrictive that it impairs our ability to produce enough cattle to satisfy the demand that exists there. We're hoping to see progress to move that to an age level that will allow us to move considerably more product to that market.

As we take a look at the future, one thing I will say is that virtually every study we've seen, including a recently released report by Gira, a group out of Paris that looks at the world, and a number of other international studies, are predicting growth in beef consumption between now and 2015. At the same time, we're seeing countries, including Canada, reduce their production. We know there is an opportunity that will exist out there, and as economies improve, we believe we have a real opportunity to serve and satisfy those markets. The question is, what will it take to be profitable to do that? What will it take to get to that point where we see demand start to improve again?

One thing we do want to talk about is our regulatory environment. There are a number of issues there that have continued to impact our ability to compete. We believe we should be looking at that differently.

One of the things that comes up, as a regulator--and you've talked about it--is how you address the balance between an independent regulator tasked with food safety, which you've heard about, and at the same an industry that's trying to sell and base its reputation on quality and safety.

In our view, the most successful countries around the world have been those that are export-based. They're not just producing product that meets their domestic standards. We're meeting the standards of 50 or 60 different countries out there, and we're particularly aware of the scrutiny you face going into those countries. We believe in a solution-based approach to how we move forward. It's a collaboration between industry and government that creates the highest level of food safety. You cannot inspect yourself purely to a high level of food safety. It's the systems. It's how you work together. It's how you find solutions together that create a competitive and effective industry that will be well respected around the world for that.

We have made some progress. We've seen the backlog reduced, for instance, on the approval of pharmaceuticals, but to some degree part of that is the result of fewer people applying. We have other concerns we've identified through the beef value chain round table, and that was the major thrust of our previous meeting in terms of how we can start to build on what have been a number of regulatory thrusts to make our system more efficient. You know, it's interesting that after there was a listeria issue, we suddenly had a number of products approved fairly quickly. If they had been approved before that, it would have been a useful tool to have had. We've had an irradiation petition in front of the government since 1998—it's one of the most effective technologies that could be used out there—and we're still waiting for a response on that. It's a clear indication that industry is equally as interested in finding solutions as governments are, and preferably before problems arise.

One of the things we have found with our feed ban, which becomes a challenge when we work together, is the regulatory approach and how people view tolerances. We know when the feed ban was put in place.... You take a look at the difference between a 99.5% and a 100% tolerance. There's no statistical difference in the impact of the effectiveness of that ban, but it makes the policy and the cost of implementing that a multitude of times higher when you approach it that way. You end up making industries less competitive in comparison to our U.S. counterparts in particular.

Bear in mind, in our industry, every time an animal is put up for bid, there are Canadian and U.S. packers bidding if we're going to have a robust competitive bidding system. When we create a much higher cost structure in Canada, it puts our processors at a disadvantage, and over time it will cause less and less processing to be done in this country and more to move south of the border.

When you take a look at what realistic tolerances are—how you sit down and work together on a solution-based approach—we believe we both share the objective of achieving that high level of quality and safety, and we believe there are opportunities to work more effectively together. But it comes back to a cultural shift where we see the opportunity and benefit of approaching it that way. We know through the meeting of the all chairs round table that the rest of the round tables are very interested in sitting down, looking at the whole regulatory approach, and we'd encourage the committee to support a re-examination of that entire area, in a very constructive way. How do we look at taking, for example, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency or other elements—it could be environment—and working forward in a positive manner? We can come up with creative solutions that are effective.

We're also looking at how we can become more efficient. One thing we saw a year and a half ago when we went back up to par and grain costs increased quite dramatically—a fair amount, quite frankly, artificially driven by policies related to ethanol and bio-diesel around the world.... We clearly saw a number of deficiencies in terms of our system and how we had lagged behind in the adoption of certain new varieties of grain and why we hadn't seen the same level of yield improvement we had seen south of the border and why companies hadn't registered products and varieties in Canada. We completed a fairly extensive study that took a look at a number of reasons why. We're the only country that uses “novel” in its definition for approval of products.

For instance, we had one that would have been quite useful for reducing the phosphate in barley, but unfortunately we weren't able to get that approved in Canada in time because of the “novel”. It got approved and used in the United States, and it was a variety we developed in Saskatchewan. So in working around that, it's not just creating the environment for research, it's also the environment to be able to use it first in Canada that becomes quite important.

Again, going back to a solution-based approach, we're not the largest market. So when you start to find more resistance or difficulty in Canada, are you going to go to a larger market if you're in that industry and trying to commercialize product? It really compels us to try to create a culture where we work with companies and find ways to get these products moving forward and registered.

I will also say that when we take a look at the approval of products, that's not just simply the answer; there's competitive pricing. We know there are certain pharmaceuticals today and there are identical products that can be bought for 25% of the cost in the United States. So continuing to allow access to bring those products into Canada is very important to competitive pricing and the ability to produce the various...whether it's beef cattle or hogs in Canada, it remains very important.

We raised issues about our feed ban that I mentioned earlier. Now it's clear the U.S. is taking a different approach, what's referred to as a short list. They're removing the brain and spinal cord, where you remove everything. They're allowed to use the product for fertilizer. We're essentially mandated to put it to destruction, so there's no beneficial use. And to be candid, we have not seen any new markets open up because of that since it was introduced in 2007. We'll certainly accept the importance of having a feed ban to maintain our controlled risk status. The day before that rule came into effect we were exporting meat and bone meal to a number of countries around the world. We removed the specified risk material out of it, and we were no longer allowed to export it the following day--even though it's perfectly safe to feed in Canada; it's by far the safest meat and bone meal we've ever produced in this country.

But we're, again, at a further competitive disadvantage as a result of a policy that was supposed to improve market access around the world for our country. We've tried to address those issues, but as you can tell, we're a bit frustrated with the lack of progress on them.

When we have impaired ability to market all our products around the world, it impacts the cut-out of every single animal we process. Let me give you an example of a number of things that are impacted by that. We estimate there's easily $82 a head that we can gain by improved market access. For instance, Egypt is the highest market in the world for hearts. You can sell lungs to Indonesia. Currently, if the market's not very good, we end up rendering those products. There's long-cut feet that goes to Korea. Japan is the highest market in the world for short plates, and Cargill High River was their largest supplier previously. Liver went to Russia. All of those tongues into Japan all command a significant premium, and a lot of times they end up getting rendered or going into a grind in Canada at a significantly discounted value.

We strongly support the announcement to move ahead of the trade secretariat, and we encourage a lot of energy and effort in going in. We strongly support the recent emphasis on trade missions to reopen markets around the world, and we strongly commend the minister for the efforts he's making. If anything, we feel even more effort could be made. We've suggested possibly the appointment of a beef envoy at a cabinet level, because when you're meeting with other governments, it is significant in terms of the status of the individuals who attend meetings and participate with them. That's not in any way critical of the work of the minister; it's just simply the number of markets we have to work with in the schedule, which the minister also has to follow more or less to work in support of what he's doing.

We've also suggested recognizing that there is a delicate balance in Parliament. It may be sensible to have a number of the opposition parties participate in those missions and work in support of those efforts. We believe that's one of the most important things that can happen for our long-term viability and competitiveness.

There are other issues. For instance, a number of plants in the U.S. don't process Canadian cattle because we're not open to Korea. They'll start processing once we open to Korea, but right now the Koreans won't allow any Canadian product in those packing plants. So again, that directly impacts on our price and on what we refer to as the basis.

There are issues going into the United States. It is the largest beef market in the world. It is also expected to have significant growth because of population growth between now and 2015, at the same time that their supply is reducing. So we know that's going to be an important market for us.

Whenever we end up with additional costs going into the market.... Of course, our U.S. competitors don't have that because they don't have to go into the U.S. market; they're already there. So anything we can do to reduce those cross-border costs is extraordinarily important to the price that will be paid every single day of the year to our producers.

The country-of-origin labelling is one we remain very concerned about. We were very pleased when the government announced the WTO consultations last fall. We saw, as a result of that, a negotiation to create more flexibility in the rule. And while we were encouraged by that, once the new administration came into effect and began reviewing it, the secretary unfortunately announced what he referred to as “voluntary guidelines”. There's also a proviso that if he found the industry wasn't complying with that, he would look into introducing a new rule to force compliance with the voluntary guidelines--which in our view is a de facto rule.

We're not sure how the industry is going to respond to that, but we remain deeply concerned. What he is proposing is worse than what was put in place last fall. So we're looking for a strong response from the Government of Canada to make sure that doesn't happen, and we have suggested that if it starts to happen, that is abrogating the agreement that was reached and we should be right back to the WTO again. We're working with our Mexican counterparts as well.

There is a lot more on the regulatory side that I would like to talk about in terms of different areas where I think we clearly could improve our ability to compete. We feel strongly that there are opportunities out there. If you take a look at some of the inherent strengths in Canada.... Just look at what's happening today in California with water. Canada has 10% of the world's fresh water supply. The interesting thing about our river systems is that most of them flow away from the population, whereas in most of the rest of the world the rivers flow into population. That suggests to us that this is going to be an increasing advantage as we move forward. We have one of the largest agricultural land bases in the world. If we are able to work effectively and open markets, we believe Canada will remain one of the most important food producers in the world and that our industry will be an important part of that group.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you very much, Mr. Laycraft.

We'll start our seven-minute round and move to Mr. Easter.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, John and Dennis, for coming on short notice.

A lot of your presentation was on the ability to compete. To be brutally honest with you, that's not what I'm hearing from producers out there on the ground. I am hearing yes, there's the need to compete, but I'm also hearing horror stories about people leaving the industry--in droves.

I had the dubious pleasure of listening to the minister at the CFA meeting this morning, and as we expected, there was a malicious attack on the leader of the opposition and misinformation about the Wheat Board.

11:25 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

But he did speak about deliverables, and he basically left the impression of how wonderful things are on the farm. He talked about the fact that fewer than 0.5% of farm credit accounts are in arrears, certainly leaving the impression in the general arena that there are not problems on the farm.

But I've been hearing from farmers. We met with Brad Wildeman in Saskatchewan the other day. I hear from farmers in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and the east, and they're all talking about losing their farms.

We're holding this hearing because of concern about COOL and the red meat industry, which is in trouble as we're losing producers. In fact, in Atlantic Canada we're losing the beef industry; 60% of the hog industry is gone in P.E.I. and the beef industry is in huge trouble. Our bigger producers are leaving.

So I have to ask, why are you here? Yes, we asked you, but I'm wondering, are we wrong? Is what we're hearing wrong? Is the minister right that the industry is absolutely healthy and that there is no problem on the farm?

11:30 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

Dennis Laycraft

Actually, that's what we said. Clearly--look at the inventory numbers--we saw our industry reduced by another 5% this past year. In some years, the cow numbers were down more. In the last seven years, we've gone through four what I'll refer to as 50-year events. All of them have created tremendous trauma, particularly in the beef cattle sector.

The question when you're a producer is, what is the light at the end of the tunnel? If you take a look at it, a fair number of producers are retiring. Some had delayed that and others are just fatigued from everything that has gone on. There are clear challenges.

As I indicated, we believe that one of the things we need to do is address our business risk management programs. We still have serious concerns about how they're operating. They need to be addressed. For people looking at the industry--and there are decisions about people entering the industry as well--what's the future of the industry?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Dennis, if I could, then, let me ask you a couple of specific questions on that. You admit the breeding herd industry is in serious decline. The minister certainly didn't.

I would like to know if the Canadian Cattlemen's Association has any figures on how much the debt has increased for the beef industry this year at the farm level. We agreed with the government in terms of extending the advance payments and getting money out there, but we know you can't borrow yourself out of debt. I assume the industry is left with a much larger debt than last year's.

You mentioned in your presentation that Saskatchewan today is announcing a $40-per-head payment. One of the things Brad mentioned to me was his concern about the Alberta program. Are we really, then, in this country, getting a patchwork quilt of programs at the provincial level because there's an absolute vacuum of leadership at the national level? Is that what's happening? We're getting no leadership at all from the national level.

I have three specific questions.

First, I believe the cattle industry asked for the elimination of the viability test. Has that happened? Has that been “delivered”, as the minister says?

Second, they've asked for the better of the Olympic or previous three-year average for reference margin calculations. Has that happened?

Third, they've asked for the better of AgriStability, tier 1, or AgriInvest. Has that happened?

Those are deliverables that the government could deliver today to save this industry and it isn't happening. Have they been delivered?

11:30 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

Dennis Laycraft

That's a number of questions to answer. As far as the final three are concerned, no. We're also looking at increasing the 70%, but....

I'm not sure anybody has seen any recent numbers on debt that would be reliable. We meet with the Bankers Association at least quarterly to try to assess what's happening. The story is different across the country. The situation is probably most critical in Manitoba because of massive flooding in one part and drought in the other part, which is one of those hard-to-believe scenarios that can develop. There's a serious drought in parts of Saskatchewan. We've asked for, and there has been some work in terms of addressing, cash advances in those areas.

Depending on where you are in the country, clearly in some areas there is a significant issue of debt that has grown, more because of weather-related issues than other reasons. One thing that has helped cushion our industry, but is giving us all pause, is the fact that our dollar is dropping from par down to around 80¢ as we speak. That has probably made an enormous difference, but how long will that last? Everybody recognizes us as having the best financial system in the world. Common sense dictates that we're going to see prices improve.

Part of our message on some of these underlying issues that became apparent in 2007 is that we had better address them with solutions. Just ad hoc farm payments aren't going to change that. We have to make sure we create a very positive and competitive environment so there's a long-term future for the industry.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

I agree with you in terms of the underlying issues, but solving the underlying issues and having nobody left in the industry in regions of the country is not going to solve the problem. As I said, we're losing the industry in Atlantic Canada and I see nothing coming forward.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Your time has expired, Mr. Easter.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Here's my question: in Ontario, how many people do not qualify for the safety nets in the beef industry?

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Could you answer that quickly, Mr. Laycraft?

11:35 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

Dennis Laycraft

We can talk.

The Ontario Cattlemen's Association is meeting today. That didn't come up at their meeting, but I can try to get an answer.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Okay, thanks.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Mr. Bellavance.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

André Bellavance Bloc Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here and for your testimony.

I was elected in 2004, and even then the cattle sector had been in crisis for at least a year. I was appointed agriculture critic in 2005. We met regularly as a committee. We prepared reports. I myself arranged for an emergency debate on the crisis in the cattle industry, right here in the House of Commons. That led to measures such as Bill C-44, which dealt with advance payments. Things are moving. Some markets have been re-opened, in spite of everything. But you are here again today to testify that, in 2009, the crisis is unfortunately as great as ever.

There are several matters to discuss, but my first question is about what is happening with our American trading partners. About a month ago, Mr. Ritz, the Minister of Agriculture, decided not to seek recourse at the World Trade Organization against the American decision on country-of-origin labelling, the COOL standard. The Secretary of State, basically acting like the American minister of agriculture, seems to be no longer using the same language as when the Americans previously announced their intention to relax that rule. Our minister, Mr. Ritz, said at the time that he was satisfied enough to not seek recourse at the WTO. The American minister of agriculture says that the standard is voluntary, while threatening to fine people in the United States who do not implement it. There is clearly a problem. This happened the day after President Obama came here to the House of Commons. The Prime Minister had to have discussed the fact that it is dangerous to impose unreasonable protectionist measures at a time of economic crisis.

Of course, President Obama was only here for a few hours. Despite the efforts in the media and the government’s attempts to convince us that good will is the order of the day and everything is going to be fine, that we are best buddies, and that George Bush is long forgotten, we can all see that protectionist measures are being imposed in the United States. I think measures like that require a swift response from the government.

How does the American decision resonate with you? Is what we read in the media exactly what is going to happen? Do you think that Canada should intervene a little more forcefully on the COOL standard?

My second question deals precisely with this matter. I understand that the Canadian Federation of Agriculture is considering the possibility of establishing a labelling standard, if it has not already done so. It would not necessarily be the same as the American one, since we do not want to be subject to lawsuits ourselves. Do you feel that this is an adequate response to what the Americans are doing?

11:40 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

Dennis Laycraft

John may want to add something to this, as he attends numerous meetings throughout the U.S. regularly. He was in our embassy in the U.S. before he came to work for us. So I'll make a few brief comments and then ask John to comment.

I guess on the last point on whether we should we put in different country-of-origin labelling in Canada than our “Product of Canada” labels, I will remind everyone that the estimated cost of what they're trying to do down there is about $3.9 billion, with negligible consumer benefits. So I don't think adopting bad policy to address bad policy is ever good policy.

I think we want to continue to make sure that the standards are based around the sound principles of substantial transformation. When you process an animal, that is a substantial transformation, which is what we're hoping to pursue long term. Even going back to the decision to suspend the case, we made it clear that we wanted to fully maintain all our legal rights.

Creating more flexibility only partially fixes the problem. There's still a significant issue with the way country-of-origin labelling.... But bear in mind that the WTO case is a long, slow process. Whether it's at NAFTA or WTO, you're usually talking about years to get to a resolution. We have talked to the minister about this, and in a press release we issued in the last couple of days we called on the government to take all actions possible to address this. By this, we mean that intervention at the most senior level of government is going to be crucial right now. We have been assured there is going to be contact at that level by the government with the U.S. to try to address this directly.

We believe that the efforts of Secretary Vilsack.... As you pointed out, the timing of his decision was extraordinary, and what he has proposed is worse than what was previously in place. We believe there needs to be a strong message that it's unacceptable.

It is hard to bring a case forward until the rule actually comes into full effect, because we're dealing with the new final rule—although there's a de facto rule that becomes an argument, and you can build a case on that under WTO. We are gathering evidence as we speak to support the case, so when we hit that date.... Whether we will start to see the U.S. industry follow the voluntary guidelines is the $60 million question.

The word from the National Meat Association to their members is that it will be impractical to do that, and they're not going to follow those new guidelines. The AMI has just said that they'll teach customers to decide what they're going to do.

We're going to be monitoring this over the next four weeks very closely. Unfortunately, one of the things they can do to meet the final rules and new guidelines is simply to handle U.S. product alone and not handle any imported product. That's another thing you have to watch for when monitoring this, to see if companies that would have handled Canadian product are not handling Canadian product.

We're going to push for the strongest possible response. We are told that there is going to be senior intervention, but we'll be watching this closely as well. We appreciate the fact that you're taking a special interest in this.

John, did you want to say something?

11:40 a.m.

John Masswohl Director, Governmental and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

I think you've covered all the bases there.

The thing is that President Obama said all the right things, and now we want to see those really occur. I think there's a role for everybody here. Both Canada and the U.S. had parliamentary and congressional elections in the fall, so there are people here, and there are new people there. We need to rebuild those relationships and take every opportunity to remind policymakers, whether they're in the administration or Congress, of the President's words, because he absolutely got it right. They just need to follow through and we need to press them. If we can avoid having these voluntary guidelines come into effect, we're better off avoiding them than having them come in and have to fight them.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Mr. Atamanenko.

February 26th, 2009 / 11:40 a.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Thank you very much for coming here on short notice. I really appreciate that, as all of us do.

We've all seen or looked at the National Farmers Union report on the cattle industry. By the way, I would like to thank you folks for responding to the report. It's good to have different points of view.

I'm not going to dwell too much on those reports. I have just one question. One of the main points the Cattlemen's Association talks about with respect to the reasons for the decline in prices is that the demand has decreased. That's an interesting point. I'd like you to comment on that.

I was elected in 2006, and ever since I've been here it seems that the cattle industry has been in crisis. My observation is that everybody has good intentions. Our minister is a farmer. Everybody wants to do the right thing, on both sides around the table here; nobody wants the industry to go down. But at the same time, my observation is that the system is not working. We're getting more of the same. We need some new approaches, and frankly I don't know what they are.

I thought today I would give you some feedback I have received from some producers on the ground and get your reaction.

We have a typical story. A gentleman in Stratford is saying he can't continue. That's it. He's not getting any money for cattle. His children won't be able to continue in the industry. It's a no-win situation. He's getting out. He's losing money.

A rancher in Keremeos, not far from where I live, is saying that he's forced to pay fees to the cattle development fund and the association's administrative expenses, but the cow-calf business is getting to be a nightmare. If it keeps going, most small producers will be out of business. Anybody with a mortgage will be walking away. No young people are going into the business.

We're all hearing these stories.

A gentleman from Moosamin, Saskatchewan, has written a letter saying the following. Right now he's getting roughly between $400 and $500 a cow. Before BSE the price was $800 to $1,200. These are cows that go the Brooks killing plant. At the auction at the Heartland stockyards in Virden, Manitoba, the maximum he is able to get is $36 a pound. You're looking at $360 for a 1,000-pound cow,

He goes on to say that in Minot, North Dakota, there are livestock commission auctions every Friday morning. The prices there are 10¢ higher on feeder and butcher beef. Here the price he can get is 38¢; there it's 60¢. The average price for butcher bulls is 80¢ there and 45¢ here. He says the cattle there don't appear to be as high quality as the cattle we have here, but the price is more.

He finished with two questions. Why isn't the Cattlemen's Association doing more to get cattle into the United States? Why aren't you doing more to cut this whole notion of captive supply we've talked about--it's in the report and the Americans are apparently starting to move on it--so we can regenerate the market?

I'll stop there. Hopefully you have some time to answer.

11:45 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

Dennis Laycraft

That's a fairly simple set of questions....

First of all, on the issue of demand and what happened, a number of us were very actively involved in the industry through the eighties into the nineties. There's an assertion that Cargill in particular coming in was the reason that a lot of smaller plants went out of business, but almost all those smaller plants had already gone out of business before the decision was even made to put a shovel in the ground. We saw a whole group of multi-storey plants that were antiquated leaving the industry during that period of time, and others, that were starting to build single-storey, double-shifting plants, beginning to develop.

As we headed into the late eighties, there started to be a very significant shift in demand that was health-driven. We also saw a very significant increase in poultry production and poultry consumption.

Now, it's interesting that since that period of time, we have seen a significant decline in demand for beef in Canada but a significant increase in both the growth of our cattle herd and the growth of cattle feeding in our country. You don't see both of those if you're losing significant money. In fact, we became the fatest-growing beef-grain-feeding region in the world during that period of time. It was driven by the fact that we were seeing enormous export success around the world, particularly in the United States as a result of the Canada-U.S. agreement. Then we gained a tariff advantage into Mexico. The U.S. and Canada were given tariff-free access while the rest of the world still had tariffs to go into Mexico. And we started to see access into Japan.

By the time we got toward the end of the nineties, we saw demand stabilize. There was a shift in terms of product focus on quality and how we marketed our product. In the last number of years, we've been going from crisis to crisis--a 50-year drought with Hay West, in 2002 the BSE, then 2003 was the highest our currency had been since 1954, and then the world economic crisis of proportions that some will argue we haven't seen in 80 years.

We don't like the fact that we've gone through all of this, but practically all of it was beyond the control of any “plan” or any other thing you could do. It's been one of the most remarkable periods in the history of our industry. The fact that we still have a large percentage of our industry coming forward and saying that we need to address the viability test.... The fact that they're still here to talk about the viability test is a strong testament to them.

What drives the price of calves up and down is the price of grain. If people want to start asking why, well, if we start to create policies around the world that artificially inflate the price of grain, we also need to start asking ourselves about the sense in doing that. We're going to see lower grain costs for a period of time. We're going to see lower fuel costs for a period of time. The question is how to get more value.

What happened a year ago is that you saw inflation in costs. At the same time, we hadn't seen a similar inflation in the value of our meat products. Now we've seen deflation in costs. Hopefully we haven't seen deflation in meat costs yet. What we have seen as a result of the crisis is a shift in the value of different products. We saw this in the eighties too. You started to see a manufacturing of lower-trim and less food-service sales, with a shift more to those products at retail.

No one's quite sure what to make of demand over the next period of time, but we believe there is an opportunity to get more value. We talk a lot about exports. We do that because those things are impacting directly on the value of each animal that's being sold.

As well, when we took a look at the impact of exports, for every additional dollar in improved value we got, we saw about a 67¢ improvement in live cattle prices. So for every $100 that we could improve the value to our processors, if that historic relationship exists, we would see a $67 return back to cattle producers. Right now they need higher prices to address their income.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you, Mr. Laycraft.

Mr. Lemieux.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here today.

Yesterday I was with the Ontario Cattlemen's Association, and certainly there are challenges facing the producer sector. One of the things I spoke to the Ontario Cattlemen's Association about was some of the work that Minister Ritz and our government has been doing to open foreign markets and to basically increase demand worldwide for our fine Canadian beef products.

I'd ask you to share your thoughts on the importance of foreign markets on the beef sector. Secondly, I'd also like you to comment on the National Farmers Union. They put out a report, which you're probably very well aware of, and in that report, just on exports, they made a comment regarding an export over-dependence. I wonder if you could answer both those questions.

The first would be based on your perspective and the perspective of the Cattlemen's Association on foreign markets and the importance of those. You did mention some of them: for example, Jordan, which had been closed to our beef for 10 years and now is open, Saudi Arabia, Hong Kong, Mexico, and we've got more chips coming up.

In the second part, could you also comment on that aspect of the NFU report that says that part of the difficulty of our cattle sector is related to what they would call an export over-dependence?

11:55 a.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Cattlemen's Association

Dennis Laycraft

There were a range of things. When we analyzed it, I think it looked at part of the issue but not the whole picture, as we talked about demand and the ability to satisfy those customers around the world. I'm not of the opinion any longer that there's such a thing with globalization as a domestic or export market. You have larger or smaller industries. That's essentially what you face.

Every time an animal is processed in Canada you're going to get the highest value for that animal by exporting certain parts of that animal around the world. If we weren't exporting those products we would just get lower value overall. As I mentioned, whether it's the tongues, livers—I didn't get into the offals, but there are clearly markets around the world that pay a much higher price for those products than we do—skirt meat, flank meat, a whole range of those, having access to move where there is ethnic demand that creates premiums for those products is extremely important to the value of every animal, and more importantly to the ability of our processors to remain in business.

Again, I mention each day to get competitive bidding--and this is the whole question back to competitiveness and captive supply. We saw in Ontario when Moyer's started to process product again. Suddenly we went from about a minus 15, a negative basis, up to a plus 2 or plus 3 basis. That was about $180 a head, because it became more competitive around the bidding.

To the question of getting those markets open and reducing some of the regulatory burden to go in there again, we believe that's extremely important. Every bit of that improves the value of every animal sold in Canada, and that really is going to be crucial to our future. So we strongly support every effort in moving ahead.

It's interesting. Last year we were taking a look at New Zealand and the emphasis they place both in their regulatory system and in their whole policy structure. Everyone you talked to, you could have sworn they had a pep talk about the importance of exports every morning, including their regulators. They're proud to go out and advocate their regulatory system everywhere. We have a constant struggle about whether a regulator can do that. Well, if we don't have good systems that we're prepared to brag about around the world, then we'd better make sure we do, and we're confident we do.

The U.S. may well be our largest market because it is the largest market in the world and we're the closest to it. Most countries are envious of our proximity. Is there more that we could do? I'm sure John has attended close to 25 meetings since September down there. We attend virtually every forum and we're in Washington every three to six weeks. We now spend close to $1 million a year down there on advocacy.

Quite frankly, it's not going to be easy with the new Democrat-controlled Congress. There are a number of them who are more interested in obstructing trade. But we've also met with a number of others who don't feel the same way. We believe we can work with them, but it's going to take an extraordinary effort over the next four years.