Evidence of meeting #34 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was market.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Chorney  President, Farmers' Markets Canada
André Nault  President, Les amiEs de la terre de l'Estrie
Laurier Busque  Member, Board of Directors, Les amiEs de la terre de l'Estrie

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

I will call our meeting to order.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses here and thank them for attending. We'll get right into statements.

First of all, we have from Farmers' Markets Canada, Mr. Robert Chorney. You have 10 minutes or less, please.

3:30 p.m.

Robert Chorney President, Farmers' Markets Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Merci beaucoup. Bonjour.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

When one thinks of being a witness and appearing before parliamentarians, one thinks of these hearings in Washington, or hearings that have been held in Ottawa, and one thinks of an adversarial kind of thing. I realize that it's not the case here. I'm here with friends.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC

We can be that way if you want.

3:30 p.m.

President, Farmers' Markets Canada

Robert Chorney

Not with farmers' markets; farmers' markets are like motherhood and apple pie. I'm here with friends and friendly dialogue, and I really welcome the opportunity.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

I apologize. We do have a lawyer on our committee, but there's nothing we can do about that.

3:30 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

3:30 p.m.

President, Farmers' Markets Canada

Robert Chorney

I have a son who is a lawyer, so that's okay.

Thanks again for giving me this opportunity.

Farmers' markets have enjoyed an incredible renaissance over the last 15 or 20 years. I represent Farmers' Markets Canada, as its national president, and that is a volunteer position. My day job is as the executive director of Farmers' Markets Ontario, which is the provincial association of Ontario's 175 farmers' markets.

As I indicated earlier, farmers' markets are enjoying quite a rebirth in our country, primarily in Ontario and British Columbia. There are three reasons for that. The first reason is that shoppers and consumers want fresh, local produce. That's the number one reason we have this renaissance. The second reason is that farmers want to market directly and they want to cut out the middlemen. It's as simple as that. The third reason is that communities are looking for good things to do for their communities. For example, an economic development committee will help organize a market for its reasons. A chamber of commerce will do the same. An agricultural society will organize a farmers' market to make better use of its land and buildings. A service club will do it to raise funds not on the backs of the farmers, certainly. And on and on. These community groups want to do markets.

So we have shoppers wanting fresh food, farmers wanting to market directly, and community groups wanting to do something neat in their communities. Those are the main reasons for this renaissance of farmers' markets.

Less than 20 years ago we had 60 of them in Ontario. We're sitting at 175 today. Less than 20 years ago we had 5 or 6 markets in British Columbia, and we have well over 100 today. Across the country there are about 550 active farmers' markets. I've given you a copy of our last economic impact report, released in 2009. Sales over the last couple of years at Canada's 500 or so farmers' markets exceed $1 billion, and 70% of that happens in Ontario. I'm not here to plug Ontario; I'm just giving you the facts.

I'll speak about the economic impact of these markets. We just had an economic impact study done, and the experts tell us that farmers' market sales have a multiplier effect of 3.24. So with sales of $1 billion across our country, the economic impact of these farmers' markets across Canada is over $3 billion, very much a sleeping giant. When we put those numbers out there, people are pretty shocked.

There are probably 10,000 vendors in our sector—farmers, artisans, and secondary producers. The support we get from shoppers is incredible: 92% say they want to deal with the farmers; 62% say absolutely, and 92% say yes, we want to deal with the farmer.

I'm not going to get into it, but you are well aware of the Galen Weston comment. The Conference Board of Canada organized a Canadian Food Summit in Toronto earlier in February, and I attended it. Mr. Weston made his ill-timed remarks, and the media and the social network went wild. We have tracked it, and just hang onto your seats. There have been 40 million impressions from people supporting farmers' markets. That's Facebook, Twitter, blogs, and all the media—and 40 million impressions.

I can tell you that 99.9%—it doesn't get closer to 100% than that—are from people saying how objectionable that was, and how much they support farmers' markets. That's the kind of support we have.

We think that farmers' markets are very pivotal to the food supply chain. Young people today don't know much about a farm, and one of the things a farmers' market does is reconnect shoppers with our farmers. Shoppers can go to a market, eyeball the producer, find out what went into or on that product, and how to prepare it for the table. So farmers' markets are reconnecting society with our land, and we think that's critical.

Another thing about farmers' markets is that it's a great place to incubate small business. We have any number of small businesses who came to the market, started selling, and the first thing we know they're running a retail store, or whatever. It's a great place to incubate a small business.

It's also a great place for young farmers to get into the sector. A young farmer is not going to be buying quota and spending all kinds of dollars. With a small piece of land, some hard work, and a feel for the soil, a young person can very quickly get into the farmers' market sector and make a reasonably good living—part-time at first—and build from there.

I'm not going to tell you any more, other than the fact that I have a passion for these markets. I've been at it 20 years. I say one of my reasons for being is to help farmers be price makers not price takers. That is critical.

Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada was great four or five years ago. They funded us to be able to do our economic impact study, our logo, our incorporation, and our website, but those funds dried up. We're hopeful—I realize times are tough in government—that Farmers' Markets Canada will be able to get some help fairly soon. We're a dormant organization right now. I'm trying to keep it going with some volunteer board members across the land, but we're hoping to be able to get some funding to do some things.

With that, I'll turn it back to you, Mr. Chair.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you very much.

Now we'll move on to...and I'm going to apologize; I can't pronounce your organization very well.

Mr. André Nault, please, for ten minutes or less. We also have Mr. Busque here as well.

3:35 p.m.

André Nault President, Les amiEs de la terre de l'Estrie

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would first like to thank you for inviting us to participate in this study on agriculture in Canada.

I would like to introduce Laurier Busque, a former professor from the University of Ottawa. I am the President of Les AmiEs de la Terre de l’Estrie and the president and founder of markets for regional solidarity. We are both volunteers. Neither of us receives any money from anyone for this.

The mission of Les AmiEs de la Terre de l’Estrie is as follows. Sherbrooke’s Marché de solidarité régionale was established out of respect for the earth and humankind, and offers numerous quality local products from area farmers. The market advocates food self-sufficiency by developing products and jobs locally.

To achieve its mission, the Marché de solidarité régionale has adopted a unique approach that blends the flexibility of e-commerce with the pleasure of buying locally.

Let us talk about knowing where our food comes from. Currently, the greatest challenge in the food industry is the lack of information on where food comes from. That is why farmers' markets are so popular in Quebec. Farmers' markets are growing; there are about 20 in the Eastern Townships. Agricultural methods vary significantly from one country to the next; knowing where a product comes from is essential in determining whether a product is socially acceptable. In Canada, the equitable food supply chain is hampered by the simple fact that corporate research on transgenesis is kept secret.

By making local products available, we know where our food comes from and often get to meet the producers. We can ask questions about production and processing methods, if applicable. This direct contact between producers and consumers creates a relationship of trust, and as a result, consumers are willing to make a certain amount of effort to maintain a relationship with the people who feed them. Communities are based on human ties, not financial ties. These days, the food supply chain tends to place more emphasis on the latter rather than the former.

What do we want for our future? Development based on capitalism with all its familiar impacts, like social alienation, or a community in which the economy serves the people instead of the other way around? People-centred development is not only a social obligation but an inevitable obligation. The system as we know it will no longer have the energy or resources to continue on its current path; it will falter in the short or medium term. Therefore, we must replace it with a system that consumes less energy. Short-channel distribution networks are a very interesting alternative.

The Marché de solidarité régionale recognizes that the only way to save the planet is to buy locally. Historically, agriculture has been the linchpin of community development. Rethinking agriculture based on feeding one’s community is part of the desire to reconnect with the communities in which we live. Despite the tendency for people to migrate to urban centres, there has been a growing trend across Canada to buy local products.

With the depletion of oil resources, we will no longer be able to count on regular access to agricultural products from faraway places. Consequently, we will have to restructure food distribution around both urban and rural communities. Oil is a limited, non-renewable resource, and our society is only just beginning to feel the impact of its depletion.

Let's look at fair deregulation. Given the deregulation taking place around the world and especially in Canada, we must review the systems that have brought deregulation to our own agricultural system. If we deregulate on the one hand, but continue to subsidize the major corporations that control the market on the other hand, nothing will change in terms of local product development. These major corporations are involved in seed genetics, processing and distribution.

They must be stripped of their protected access to the free market so that they are on the same footing as community-based businesses. Here is a simple and convincing example: during the listeria crisis, inspectors took a very heavy-handed approach to the raw milk cheeses produced by Quebec’s artisan cheese makers, but did not touch the raw milk cheeses imported by companies like Agropur and Saputo. If the two systems were on an equal footing in terms of deregulation, we would begin to have a fair arrangement.

Let’s now look at the food supply chain serving the people. We would like to share with you our vision of a food supply chain based on four parameters that can be arranged in a way to help guide the public: self-sufficiency, democracy, diversity and fairness.

The challenge for the public and for our leaders is to implement these four parameters interdependently. Making a community food self-sufficient means giving it the ability to meet its food requirements in the face of any disaster that may arise.

At present, Canadian cities do not have adequate food self-sufficiency beyond a two-week period. The democracy we hold so dear can be truly achieved only if we have a say in what we eat. It is certainly not democratic to import garlic from China and cucumbers from India when these two products are traditional elements in our diet and agriculture. We have no democratic input with producers from outside Canada.

The relationship we have to rebuild with our own producers is based on participatory democracy in which the members of a community have a say in what they eat. We must trust the collective wisdom of our fellow citizens when it comes to feeding ourselves.

In terms of diversity, history offers an excellent example of what happens when there is a lack of plant diversity. The famine that struck Ireland in 1822 was caused when insufficient varieties of potatoes were planted and the crop was devastated by disease. Diversity brings balance. The industrialization of agriculture has led to a reduction in the varieties of nutritional plants and an emphasis on the most popular species—hence a lack of diversity—with the result that we are facing imminent danger. The advent of genetically modified foods works against biological diversity.

Last but not least: fairness. Only short-channel production can bring back fair prices for producers’ work. With the globalization of the agri-business, we have lost contact with local producers, who are no longer able to compete. Major supermarkets refuse to display local produce, saying that the food supply chain must be consistent in all of their stores across the province. There will always be a link between the principles of fairness and democracy.

Should revenue benefit a single person or the community? That is our justification for sustainable development, and experience has shown that, if we ignore these four parameters, we will end up undermining our resources. What will be left for future generations?

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Okay. Thank you very much.

We will now move on to questioning.

Mr. Atamanenko, five minutes.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Thank you very much to all of you for being here.

Bob, it's certainly good to see you again. I haven't seen you for a couple of years. I'm just going to throw some questions out and then maybe I'll get you to answer.

On the first one, we've been back and forth over the last years, Bob, in regard to farmers' markets and the need for some kind of assistance from the federal government. Help is given to other organizations in other areas, but it seems that farmers' markets don't receive any. I would like to see if you could comment on that. You're saying that the organization is dormant.

I would also like to talk about the national food strategy. For example, we know that the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, the national farmers union, the UPA and other organizations are interested in a national food strategy. But we see that the government is focused on exports.

How can we develop our exports and have a Canada-wide food strategy at the same time? What would be the basis of this strategy? How can we protect farmers and promote local markets as part of a food strategy?

We're looking at a national food strategy, which has been thrown out there by the Federation of Agriculture, our party, the Liberal Party, other organizations. I'm just wondering how all this fits in.

Maybe we'll just stop there.

Perhaps, Bob, you could just give us a few comments on the dormant organization.

3:45 p.m.

President, Farmers' Markets Canada

Robert Chorney

Thank you, Alex, very much, and thank you for always being so responsive and supportive. We appreciate that very much. Our board members across the county know you and appreciate what you do in trying to help us.

In 2008, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada very kindly provided some funds to us. We were able to do this major economic impact study, as I mentioned earlier, on our website, our incorporation, and our logo. We engaged Brent Warner, a retired B.C. ag person—whom you know, Alex—to travel across the country to get a feel for what was going on out there.

Over the last 15 or 20 years I've worked in every province in Canada, trying to help organizations organize farmers' markets. I've gone there under the auspices of Farmers’ Markets Ontario, which isn't fair to that organization because it doesn't really have the funds to be sending me across the country. I've helped do farmers' markets in Grand Falls, which is just a beautiful little market; in Bouctouche; and out in B.C.

We reached a point where we decided that Farmers’ Markets Canada would have to come into being to sort of carry the load, and it did, in 2006. We got some funding to be able to do some things, but then the funding dried up. We don't have access to dollars to be able to continue our programming. Those provincial associations out there, which are our members, are run by volunteers. They don't have big budgets.

The only provincial association with any kind of financial strength is Ontario, and that's thanks to the Government of Ontario. The Government of Ontario has been incredible over the last 20 years in terms of helping us with our market program. I think of Vankleek Hill and Kapuskasing, and places I've gone to help do markets. The Government of Ontario has been wonderful.

We're not getting that kind of help in other provinces, and we also need this help federally. I've asked our volunteer board for a teleconference; we were able to do some teleconferencing via a patron. We're trying to do our AGM. I'm getting discouraged, quite frankly—and Alex, I think you know that—but I don't want to give up.

Farmers’ Markets Canada is a really good organization. We've done some good stuff. We reach out to the people of Canada, but we need help doing that. It's easy to say go to some corporate sponsors and so on, but their funds are tight as well.

I think we're going to renew our approach to Minister Ritz and his staff to see, perhaps with some help, what we can do to access some funds to continue our work. Our work is really worthwhile. We're not going to give up. Even though we're dormant, we're not going to give up. We want to keep moving forward.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Yes, go ahead.

3:50 p.m.

President, Les amiEs de la terre de l'Estrie

André Nault

Thank you. It would be interesting for the members of the committee to try to picture the future. We have to go back to the foundation of agriculture, which is to feed the community. If we have a surplus, it is easy to sell abroad. But right now, we are selling what we have too much of, the five million hogs in Quebec, for example, and we are buying what we could grow locally, such as garlic, cucumber, cabbage, tomatoes, and so on.

We have somewhat changed the balance of agriculture. Access to inexpensive oil has completely turned things around. Between 1950 and 1960, we started importing and exporting pretty much shamelessly. Today, we are assuming the responsibility, as producers, to feed the planet while our communities are starving to death. So we need to go back to the origins, to the basic principle of agriculture, which is to feed the community first.

We have to feed our communities first. Farmers' markets—both in Quebec and in Canada, I am sure—work because there is a direct contact with producers. We need to rediscover those ties. Regardless of what we can accomplish, there is definitely an export market, but this market does not have a lot of ties with producers and the community. For example, an entire production might be exported. The community would have no link to that production.

So we need to go back to basics. To do so, there are two potential markets: the export market—which has to continue because it has been around for almost 50 years—and the other market that we are in the process of rediscovering. With public markets for regional solidarity and online markets, we are rediscovering the ties with producers.

3:50 p.m.

Laurier Busque Member, Board of Directors, Les amiEs de la terre de l'Estrie

I would just like to add something to your question. It has to do with drawing a parallel between the increase in exports over the past few years and the number of producers. There is no correlation, on the contrary. This becomes a major concern when agriculture is export-driven.

Why is it not possible to have more producers working?

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thank you very much.

Mr. Hoback, you have five minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here this afternoon. I'll keep going along these lines, because I want to challenge you a little bit. I'm looking for some good debate and some different ideas here.

I come from an area in the prairies in Saskatchewan where I don't have a major centre close by. My closest centre is an hour away. Major centres like Calgary or Winnipeg are six to eight hours away.

When we look at farmers' markets, or markets where farmers can sell their goods directly to consumers, how do you accommodate somebody who's not in the local area and still wants to participate in that market? They want to be able to cut out the middleman and still have contact with consumers, but they aren't in an area where they have the bulk of consumers—the demographics.

How would you accommodate that situation?

3:55 p.m.

President, Farmers' Markets Canada

Robert Chorney

That's a good question. Thank you.

Each farmers' market is autonomous. However, for almost all of them I think the rules would allow a farmer to drive a great distance if he or she wanted to. A lot of that occurs. I know farmers who drive 100 or 150 kilometres to come to a market because it is buoyant and they have a chance to sell their products. They're welcome.

There's a big market in Saskatoon. As you know, it's one of the better markets in your province. I'm sure there are vendors there who come great distances to sell their products.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

What if I wanted to sell in Toronto? How would you accommodate me there?

3:55 p.m.

President, Farmers' Markets Canada

Robert Chorney

I would wonder why a farmer would want to do that. He'd have to have a pretty unique product, and I can't even think of one.

We have vendors from Quebec who come to the ByWard Market and the Parkdale Market here in the city. We can accommodate them, and we work hard at doing that.

You know, the whole thing is to put fresh product in front of shoppers. Our duty is to get the farmers in there and get the product to shoppers. They're just clamouring for it.

The whole eating locally thing is here to stay. We've been preaching eating locally for 20 years. We've been a voice in the wilderness. Now we're a voice riding that wave, because it's a very strong and very real wave. We're thrilled with it.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Mr. Nault.

3:55 p.m.

President, Les amiEs de la terre de l'Estrie

André Nault

With the exception of Saskatchewan that has a lot of them, local communities used to be able to sustain themselves in the past. Actually, our dependence on export or import makes us slightly more vulnerable. We have put our resources aside and we choose to focus on exports because they are profitable.

We have created an imbalance in our markets and we have lost sight of our agriculture's primary objective, which is to feed our communities. I can give you examples from Alberta because I lived there for four years. Falher, in the north, Saint-Isidore and Peace River are all small communities that are able to sustain themselves, as they always have. That was not the case in the 1980s when they decided to give their food products to the world's large distributors, some of whom used it freely, I believe.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

The problem I have in my region—and I'm going back to the example of where I'm at—is that two farmers could feed the community, no problem. And we have maybe 200 or 300 farmers. You need to find a market for those goods, so exports are very important. We need to have that valve to release the products somewhere; otherwise those farmers won't be there.

When I look at farmers' markets...I don't argue that they are growing in demand. There is one in downtown Prince Albert, and I know the community loves it. People come out every Saturday morning, and it actually rejuvenates the downtown core of Prince Albert.

In Saskatchewan we have so many producers of similar products that they just need to have a better venue or more options of venues to go to. It would be nice to have something outside of the Loblaws and Safeways, and go through that process to cut out that supposed middleman.

The other concern I want to talk about is regulation. When this food is being produced locally you assume that the farmer is presenting the product to the market in a safe manner. Do you have any checks and balances to ensure that what's packaged or being claimed to be sold is actually what's in it?

3:55 p.m.

President, Farmers' Markets Canada

Robert Chorney

That's a very good question. Thank you.

We're very proactive in terms of working with local health units. Here in Ontario there are 36 health units. We've helped them identify a champion in each local unit who has responsibility for the farmers' market. It's the same thing across the country. We urge them to visit our markets. We try to file vendors' lists at the beginning of the market season, and we encourage them to come to the markets.

We do all kinds of food safety training. If you were to go to the Farmers' Markets Ontario website, there's a really dynamic food safety training manual that's downloadable. Really, the health units are key to farmers' markets, because they're local, and the inspectors are local. We tell them that we think their first duty to us—not that we preach to them—is one of education, and certainly compliance comes afterwards. If there's a need for compliance, we think they should clamp down.

We just gave the boot to a lady in one of our markets in Toronto because she was selling eggs under the table. They weren't graded. We're just not going to put up with that. It's very clear that ungraded eggs can't be sold beyond the farm gate.

So we do our due diligence and we're concerned about food safety. There's a very high level of trust. Eighty per cent of shoppers feel that the food is as safe as or safer than at a supermarket, so there's a great feeling that food is safer coming from a farmers' market. That's a high level of trust that we can't play around with. If we ever had a food scare, it could be really tough on us, so we work very hard to make that not happen.

I'm going back to that ill-timed remark at the national food summit of a few weeks ago. The Toronto Star did a major story. Jennifer Bain, the food writer, was in touch with CFIA about when the last time there was a food scare or a recall at farmers' markets. They didn't have any, because we really work hard at that. But it's not to say it couldn't happen. If it did, we'd get really worried about that.