Evidence of meeting #55 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Neil Bouwer  Vice-President, Policy and Programs, Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Julie Adair  Legal Counsel, Agriculture and Food Inspection Legal Services, Department of Justice
Colleen Barnes  Executive Director, Domestic Policy Directorate, Canadian Food Inspection Agency

10:30 a.m.

NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

If I could, I don't want to cut you off, but I understand what you said before. I wasn't asking whether you want it. I'm asking you if, technically, through regulation, you could do that if it was so requested of you to write the regulation. I'm not looking for a, “We like it,” or “We don't like it,” or “It's somewhere else”. I'm just asking a technical question.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Bouwer.

10:30 a.m.

Vice-President, Policy and Programs, Canadian Food Inspection Agency

Neil Bouwer

Mr. Chair, I would say the CFIA's administrative procedure around how to handle cases of whistle-blowing is the place where the agency would most appropriately respond.

While I have the microphone, Mr. Chair, I would just like to say that the examples the member pointed out of Canadian federal legislation that include whistle-blower provisions are all before the 2004 Criminal Code of Canada amendments. So this applies to the Competition Act, the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, as well as the Canada Shipping Act. All of those provisions existed before the Criminal Code of Canada amendment was put in place in 2004.

10:30 a.m.

NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

I appreciate that. We do know that. Just to be clear...because now we get into, well, we've got the Criminal Code so we don't have to do it anymore. No one took them out. They haven't gone back and amended them or removed them. Maybe the government wants to do that. I don't know. I would suggest that they shouldn't.

In any case, I appreciate, Mr. Bouwer, the explanation about CFIA and the procedure. That's helpful because it was strictly a technical question. I recognize that if you thought it was imperative to have that in the act, you would have done it. I absolutely believe that to be true. This isn't a question of what you feel. It's simply a technical thing, and I appreciate the clarification. It's very helpful.

Let me end, Chair, by saying that the reason we brought forward the amendments was to enhance a piece of legislation that we believe in. We said we would do it in an expeditious and thorough way based on the timeline that we thought needed to occur, and we've done that. I'll let my friends across the way have the final decision on whether they believe that to be true or not. But we did say we would do this in a way that would be fair, reasonable, and quick. We have done that and we have not been obstructionist. As the official opposition, we've brought forward, in our view—and Mr. Valeriote will obviously speak for himself—what we believe to be concrete and positive suggestions that were helpful.

With that, Chair, I'm ever hopeful. It may just be the Scotsman in me, living in that country where it rains a lot and when it's sunny it's always a miraculous day in the world. Perhaps my friends across the way, in this last instance, will decide that there's merit in voting for the amendment rather than not.

Chair, let me just say to you, sir—because time will probably run out quickly and we won't get to say this—thank you for your guidance through this, and my thanks to my friends who were here to help.

This is a new procedure for the agriculture committee. We don't do legislation very often. In fact, it's highly unusual for us to do legislation. Let me thank Madame Adair, Monsieur Bouwer, and Madame Barnes for their interventions and help and explanations as we worked through this. They were extremely gratifying. I didn't necessarily always agree as to where it should happen, but we certainly agree that the legislation is needed, and we appreciate all of the hard work that went into crafting it and for helping us work through it. We look forward to working with you in the future.

To my colleagues, you have one last opportunity to say yea.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I could ask them to turn up the fireplace if you like.

10:30 a.m.

NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

Well, we could, but then I'd probably be looking for a lump of coal.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Valeriote.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Mr. Chair, I would like to add to Mr. Allen's comments. All opposition members have come here with the best of intentions, embracing all this legislation, not attempting to foreclose any of the good parts of it, of which there are many. We came with the intent of enhancing it.

Before I thank you, Mr. Chair, I do have some questions of Ms. Barnes.

How long have you been with the CFIA?

10:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Domestic Policy Directorate, Canadian Food Inspection Agency

Colleen Barnes

It's about four years now.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

That's 2008. You were there when Carole Swan was the president.

November 6th, 2012 / 10:35 a.m.

Executive Director, Domestic Policy Directorate, Canadian Food Inspection Agency

Colleen Barnes

I was, yes.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

She said an audit is a very specific process. This was a detailed review. Do you agree that a review is different from an audit?

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I think you're asking—

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

It's not a policy question.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I think you're asking for an opinion, though, and she's not—

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Mr. Chair—

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I'm going to rule it out of order. You're asking her for an opinion. She's not here to give her opinion. She's here to implement the policy.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Mr. Chair, I hate to disagree with you, but that's exactly why she's here.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I'm sorry, I won't allow it.

You cannot ask a witness an opinion that represents the government.

I just won't allow it.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

It's not the government she's representing.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

The question is out of order and there will be no more on that.

Seeing no further comments...okay, please.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Ms. Barnes, do you see the value of an audit versus a survey?

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Lemieux has a point of order.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

We're focused on a particular amendment and he's asking for a personal opinion. That's the way he's framing the question.

Your question should be, “Could there be an audit?” not “Do you think there should be an audit?” Ask the minister that question. Ask us that question. Those are political questions. The witnesses are there to provide advice on the wording of certain clauses, the wording of the act. They are not here to say, “I agree with it”, “I disagree with it”, “I feel strongly in favour of this”, “I feel strongly against this”. That's not their role. Mr. Valeriote is placing them in a very difficult position, and I think it's unfair.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I will rule it as a point of order and I'll ask that members not ask personal opinions of our witnesses.