Evidence of meeting #24 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gmos.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan
Thank you, Mr. Fletcher.
We'll move on to the next questioner.
We have Ms. Lockhart for six minutes.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Alaina Lockhart Liberal Fundy Royal, NB
Thank you, gentlemen. I think both of you as witnesses really exemplify the balance that we're trying to strike in this study.
Being from Atlantic Canada, I certainly appreciate the concerns that you have, Mr. Butler. Atlantic salmon affects so many industries in Atlantic Canada and is a species that we have struggled to maintain over the years. I understand where you're coming from, and I've been encouraged by some of the testimony that we've had leading up to today about the measures that are being taken to ensure that indigenous Atlantic salmon stocks aren't impacted by this work.
Mr. Fletcher, you have 30 years' experience with this particular project. Have there been any breaches of security up to this point in your research? What is the probability? Can you speak to that at all?
10:15 a.m.
Memorial University of Newfoundland
As far as I know, there have been no breaches of security. In the beginning, the university and the....
By “security” you mean escapes.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
10:15 a.m.
Memorial University of Newfoundland
Oh, there's none, to my knowledge, and I've been the one helping to look after the fish. At the marine lab in Logy Bay, where we're sitting on the edge of a cliff by ocean water, I don't see any probability of the survival of salmon leaving at any early stage, and there's certainly no way big fish can get out of there. It's hard enough keeping them alive in the lab.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Alaina Lockhart Liberal Fundy Royal, NB
We talked about the sterility of the fish, but there's still a 5% chance of breeding. Can you speak to that?
10:15 a.m.
Memorial University of Newfoundland
I can't speak for the company, but as far as I know, and I've heard them give talks on this, it's typically over 98%. That's all I know.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
10:15 a.m.
Memorial University of Newfoundland
I think they continue to work on that. With regard to interbreeding salmon, there is another expert you could talk to—not me, I'm not a salmon biologist—about the problems that farmed salmon have breeding with wild salmon. As I understand it, the farmed salmon are very poor performers. So you have another risk factor. Somebody could do a risk analysis, just speaking off the top of my head here, that could say what the probability is.
At the moment, I would say this. I don't mean to insult anybody, but I would suspect that we, and I don't mean me, have created the need to point out that you can create triploid salmon broodstock. That's probably what, in my opinion, the whole industry should be doing. That would take a long time, but then you would have less interbreeding, because farmed salmon do, at times, interbreed, and there's...they're all fertile.
10:20 a.m.
Liberal
Alaina Lockhart Liberal Fundy Royal, NB
Thank you.
Mr. Butler, you worked at Huntsman and in the industry. I actually spent some time in the Charlotte County area as well. It was in human resources in aquaculture; nonetheless....
What are some of the experiences we've had with aquaculture in Atlantic Canada that cause concern for you as we look at a new stream of production?
10:20 a.m.
Policy Director, Ecology Action Centre
Well, we were just talking about the potential for farm escapees to breed with wild fish. I believe a study just came out that showed that it has happened now. I think in the industry they use broodstock from the Saint John River, and they've now found salmon in other rivers with the genetic makeup of the Saint John broodstock. There's an example of a concern to the Atlantic Salmon Federation. I know there's a large project in Newfoundland right now that is of concern to them.
10:20 a.m.
Policy Director, Ecology Action Centre
It is, in part. Aquaculture is an important industry, and should be an important industry, in Atlantic Canada. Our organization has certain recommendations about how it should be done.
Taking it to the GM level opens up a Pandora's box for us. Given that all you need is one GM fish to breed with one wild Atlantic salmon, and that trait is then in the wild brood stock, the level of security required is so, so, so much higher. We're talking about one facility now, but you can imagine if there were many facilities with hundreds of millions of fish over many years of production, with lapses and cut corners. There are good operators and there are less-good operators. I know that for a fact. Different companies have different records. We know that from working with different companies. Something is going to happen.
If you had more time, I would suggest you bring in a scientist from DFO to talk to this. I think long term, if we commercialize these species right now, even with the high success around triploid induction, we would see breeding with wild fish. Then for anglers, be they from New York or from Halifax, like me, that would change our perspective on fishing in Atlantic Canada.
10:20 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan
Thank you, Mr. Butler.
Thank you, Ms. Lockhart.
Ms. Brosseau, you have the floor for six minutes.
10:20 a.m.
NDP
Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank the two witnesses for their presentations.
Mr. Butler, you mentioned in your presentation earlier that an article came out on May 20, in which the provincial Minister of Fisheries, Keith Colwell, said, “We’re more interested in making sure we protect what we have. Until someone can prove to us and to the public that this will be a good idea—and I don’t see much support anywhere for this—we’re not interested.”
Later on in the article it goes on to talk with Kirk Havercroft, CEO of Queen's County-based farming operation, Sustainable Blue. They're worried about branding. They're worrying about people getting confused and mistaking their products for genetically modified salmon because there are no regulations in Canada mandating GMOs to be labelled. They are talking about consumers and Canadians interested in having genetically modified labelling.
You also mentioned previously that there were no consultations with the public, with producers and, particularly, First Nations.
Can you explain why at this point it would be important to hold these kinds of consultations with Canadians?
10:20 a.m.
Policy Director, Ecology Action Centre
It has implications on a number of levels. In the United States, this was approved for human consumption. I believe Senator Murkowski, who is a pretty fierce defender of the Alaskan salmon fishing industry, came out swinging and said that we have to hit the pause button because right now there will be consumer confusion. They won't know. If it's not labelled, then it's not distinguished. Then some people are going to.... They received over a million comments, I think, in consultations in the U.S. People care about this.
From an economic standpoint, those who sell salmon are concerned about confusion and about consumers turning away from salmon altogether.
This is a big step. It has implications. We're going to see other fish. We might see insects. We might see birds. We might see trees. If you care about nature, there are implications. For the government not to do any public consultation at all, be it with stakeholders like the commercial fishery or others, is going to have implications for the commercial fishing industry long term, not right now. I think it's wrong that there haven't been consultations.
I don't want to be too much like a preacher, but I think a mistake has been made and I would encourage the government to rectify it.
10:25 a.m.
NDP
Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
You mentioned that it was a threat to wild salmon. You talked about how the GM salmon could potentially escape. There were talks at this meeting and previous meetings of the sterility of these female fish and how it goes from 95%.... There is still some speculation. You spoke earlier of a report that proved that these fish could still breed.
Also, in your opening remarks, you said that Ecology Action Centre is in court this morning. Can you tell us why you're in court?
10:25 a.m.
Policy Director, Ecology Action Centre
The Lord could better answer this question, but there are a number of reasons. I think one that is really important is that DFO did an assessment, but only of the export of 100,000 eyed eggs from P.E.I. to Panama.
They did not do an assessment of the commercial grow out. I'm still worried about the P.E.I. facility, but unless we get a mammoth hurricane or there's some kind of serious eco-sabotage, it is unlikely there is going to be interaction between those fish and the few remaining wild fish left in P.E.I.
When you go to commercial grow out, as I've said, and I can't emphasize it enough, we're talking about hundreds of millions of fish. Imagine a facility like that right beside the Miramichi River. Fish have escaped from land-based facilities. If you're talking numbers, if there are a million fish, 2%, that's 2,000. If it's 100 million, that's 200,000.
I get it that the chances are low, but the longer it happens and the more fish you produce, the more the risk goes up. I think the probability eventually approaches 100%. It would be best to ask DFO, but I think you can get comparable growth rates. If you have optimum conditions for both types of fish, you can get growth rates that are comparable.
10:25 a.m.
NDP
Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
There have been quite a few studies and polls over the last 20-some years. Canadians take interest in what they're eating. There's a whole “buy local” and the 100 kilometre diet. People want to know what's in their food, how the animals are raised, and where it's processed. They want to know as much information as possible.
10:25 a.m.
NDP
Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC
There's a private member's bill that's been tabled in the House asking that genetically modified foods be labelled. I know there are two sides. I think Canadians do have a right to know. The United Nations backs that up not just for health reasons, but for ethical reasons and maybe religious reasons, too.
Could you speak to the importance of labelling?
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan
Thank you, Madam Brosseau. We have to cut it off at six.
Mr. Longfield.
10:25 a.m.
Liberal
Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON
Thanks to both of you for coming. It's such an honour to speak with people who are experts in their areas and working on both sides of this equation for us.
I'd like to direct my first comments to Mr. Butler.
The University of Guelph has a biodiversity centre that looks very closely at the traceability of foods and at the traceability of all life forms on the planet. It's a small project they're working on. They have NSERC funding, and they have funding from different agencies around the world.
You mentioned the traits of salmon. An earlier presentation led us to believe that the genetic or molecular makeup was identical. If you took a GMO salmon and a regular salmon, and then you did an analysis, it would be one for one.