Agriculture Committee on April 4th, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Dungate.

Thank you, Mr. Anderson.

Monsieur Breton, you have six minutes.

[Pierre Breton, Liberal, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to talk in French, so you might want to put on your headsets.

My comments will be in the same vein as Mr. Anderson's.

We know that in Europe, the regulatory framework contains extremely high standards. The standards regarding animal transportation are probably among the highest in the world.

Could you tell us a bit about your assessment of the European system? You spoke at some length about shortening the maximum period animals can go without food and water, with which you are more or less comfortable. In Europe, when transportation lasts for eight hours, that is considered a long period, and trucks must be equipped with ventilation systems and drinking troughs, among other things.

What is the situation in Europe? Why is this system cited as an example everywhere on the planet? Could we not get closer to that standard?

You may all answer in turn.

Mr. Novak, you can go first, please.

[Frank Novak]

We had an issue with the microphone for the first part of your question, but if the question is directed towards why we would be following European standards, for example, I guess my answer would be that I don't know why we would be. My understanding is that some of those standards are actually there because of labour laws, as opposed to anything to do with the livestock being transported.

As we said over here, when you have countries that you can circumnavigate in less than the number of hours we're talking about, they can pick whatever they want, and I think they pick things for reasons that have nothing to do with what's actually being transported. It's because they're regulating the driver, which seems like a horrible place to look for information about how to manage our own industry.

[Pierre Breton, Liberal, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Dungate, you have the floor.

[Mike Dungate]

You spoke about an eight-hour period, but in Europe it is 12 hours for chickens. We want to go about this species by species and take differences into account.

Most people think that things are better in Europe, but I'm not sure that that is really the case, given the proposals we have here. Our transport times include loading, unloading and transportation hours. In Europe, they only count transportation hours. So those are additional hours. It means that we are talking, rather, about 19-hour periods, without counting the feed withdrawal period of 12 hours. So 12 hours have to be added to the 19 hours. In total, we are probably talking about 31 hours. We are satisfied with our position if we compare ourselves to Europe.

[Pierre Breton, Liberal, Shefford, QC]

Does anyone else have anything to add?

[Brady Stadnicki]

I'd just add quickly that when we're making regulations that have an effect on animals within Canada, we want to make sure that they're being based on what actually is happening in Canada to ensure that the outcomes for the animals within the country are the best and we're not taking something from another jurisdiction that doesn't have as much of an application in our own country. We want to be making improvements and rules based on what actually happens here.

[Pierre Breton, Liberal, Shefford, QC]

I have another question on draft regulations, regarding the mandatory training for animal loading, transportation or unloading. Have you already started this training? How is it going? How is this training, which is important in my opinion, affecting your business?

[Matt Bowman]

Most of the major long-distance trucking companies that come to Ontario would be trained under the Canadian livestock transport system. All their drivers would be certified under that system currently, or the vast majority of them would be. If they're not, they're all moving towards that. There are some establishments that won't allow you to load or unload unless you have that certificate. We're moving in that direction to make sure that everybody is certified and trained in animal care and transport.

[Pierre Breton, Liberal, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Leech, what do you have to say?

[Steve Leech]

With the Canadian livestock transport system that was just spoken about, we also have a training module in the poultry sector as well. Quite a number of companies are having their employees train for loading and unloading and transport times. That's another example where all industries have gone ahead and done this pre-regulatory requirement to do that. It's part of our animal care program, as we've talked about. It's good management practices. In terms of having the training programs in place and moving forward, the industry is moving quite well in that space.

[Pierre Breton, Liberal, Shefford, QC]

Thank you for your answers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Breton.

Thank you to the panel.

Ms. Brosseau, you have six minutes.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses here today and for the documents provided. I've been going through all the documentation and submissions. It's really interesting.

Mr. Novak, you spoke of the University of Saskatchewan doing research. Do you know when that will be completed and when we could have access to that?

[Frank Novak]

My understanding is that the U of S study is quite exhaustive. I think they're talking about a two-year period to actually complete the whole process. If I were picking a time, I would say two years is what they're working on. They might have things to talk about before. A person would have to ask them directly, but the point of their study is to make sure they do absolutely everything they need to do and not rush it to get an answer.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

When we're talking about unloading, reloading, and rest stops, what would that look like exactly? Biosecurity is an important issue. I know everybody takes that very seriously. Our farmers do. When transporting animals, it's very important that we use all of the tools in our tool box to make sure that we're fighting against potential risks. Can you elaborate on what that would look like if we had to stop and unload and reload, and also from the infrastructure point of view?

[Frank Novak]

For the hog industry, I want to make sure that everybody understands how major a risk biosecurity is for us. For anybody here who doesn't know, there was the PED virus outbreak in the U.S. in 2014, where they managed to kill some 7 million baby pigs. This bug is so virulent that our vet described it as being able to take one thimbleful of this virus, diluting it in an Olympic-sized swimming pool, and having enough virus to kill the entire Canadian hog herd. This is how virulent this is.

If you talk to Canadian hog producers about going to a public area and unloading pigs with a bunch of other pigs whose history they don't know, or cattle trucks that might have come back up from the U.S. packing a PED virus in a cattle liner, they will tell you unequivocally, it won't happen. They will not put their animals at that risk.

What would it look like? Imagine some sort of a NASA biocontainment facility with eight million different roads, so you never had to travel on the same road as the truck before you. It sounds like a ridiculous thing, but honestly that's what you would be talking about if you wanted to go to something close to zero risk. That's why we don't do it.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Bowman, or are there any other comments?

[Matt Bowman]

Currently the rest stations in Ontario are just outside of Thunder Bay. Any trucks that are required to stop have to unload there. They look like great big barns with big pens. There's enough room for everybody to get off to get feed and water and then get back on.

What would they look like? They would have to be much bigger under the proposed regulations, plus more locations, because we can't drive as far in between rests. We would have to have a whole other set of rest stations somewhere along the way for those cattle to make it to Ontario from wherever they are coming from.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I'm not quite sure who can answer this question or if anybody is interested to comment on it, but with regard to the changes to unfit animals, what does that look like? That's with regard to the current...and what is proposed in the recommendations that were in the Gazette.

Are those changes okay? Are there any thoughts around the changes to unfit animals?

[Matt Bowman]

I think what we want is more clarity around those definitions, so that all of us here can answer that question easily. The way it's written now is very vague.

We want to make sure that if there are changes to those rules and regulations, that kind of question can be answered with ease, without any grey areas on whether that should or shouldn't be going on the truck.

[Gary Stordy, Public Relations Manager, Canadian Pork Council]

I was just going to add that producers are responsible for the animals they raise. Most of the commodities have on-farm handling procedures on how to move animals from one pen to another, or moving from their farm onto a truck. That's where training comes into play. Bearing in mind that loading animals is stressful, taking them off the truck is stressful. They have to be certain that even before they get to that point, that animal can make the trip. There are situations where things are unseen, whether there's a heart condition within the animal or whatnot that develops during transportation.

There are steps in place to address some of the issues beforehand, but it's the small percentage of things that may happen, whether it's in a barn or on a truck.

[Ruth Ellen Brosseau, NDP, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Leech.

[Steve Leech]

To build on that comment quite quickly here, I think one of the recommendations we put forward is to add in the words “visually observable” for unfit or compromised birds, for the very reason that's been stated. Obviously, there can be mortality that results in transport, but the key is whether that was visibly observable before the animals were loaded, and how that was determined.

I think that goes back to the definitions, making sure that we define those specifically before we finalize the regulations, so that we all understand the common playing ground we're on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Leech.

Madame Brosseau, your six minutes are up.

Now, Ms. Lockhart, you have six minutes.