Evidence of meeting #53 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was farmers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tom Rosser  Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada
Michael Hoffort  President and Chief Executive Officer, Farm Credit Canada
Jean-Philippe Gervais  Vice-President and Chief Agricultural Economist, Farm Credit Canada
Kara Beckles  Acting Director General, Research and Analysis Directorate, Strategic Policy Branch, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada
Paul Glenn  Past Chair, Canadian Young Farmers' Forum
Justin Williams  Member, Board of Directors, Canadian Young Farmers' Forum
Brady Deaton  Professor and McCain Family Chair in Food Security, Department of Food, Agricultural and Resource Economics, University of Guelph, As an Individual

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Welcome, everyone, to our meeting pursuant to Standing Order 108, the study of debt in the agriculture sector and its effects.

I want to welcome our guests here today.

I also want to welcome the Honourable Gerry Ritz, the former Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food. It's good to have you here today.

We also welcome Alupa Clarke, who is replacing Mr. Gourde.

With us today from Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada we have Tom Rosser, assistant deputy minister, strategic policy branch. We have also Kara Beckles, acting director general, research and analysis directorate, strategic policy branch.

From Farm Credit Canada we have Michael Hoffort, president and chief executive officer. We have Jean-Philippe Gervais, vice-president and chief agricultural economist with FCC.

Welcome, all of you.

We'll start with an opening statement of up to 10 minutes, and I believe, Mr. Rosser, you're going to lead the way.

11 a.m.

Tom Rosser Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada

Mr. Chair, this is my first opportunity to testify before this committee since joining the department. I'm very pleased to be here. I'm very pleased to be accompanied by Kara Beckles, the acting director general of our research and analysis directorate, which serves as the economic advisory group of the department.

Canadian farms—like businesses in all sectors—use loans as a tool to undertake investments that allow them to innovate and grow their operations. Canadian farms today are, overall, on solid financial footing. At the same time, many current baby boomer farmers are expected to retire over the next 10 to 15 years, and many will transfer their operations to the next generation. The government has programs in place to assist in that process and help young and beginning farmers to establish themselves.

Over the past years, many areas of the Canadian agricultural sector have experienced record incomes. The financial outlook continues to be positive. While we forecast that net income will decline somewhat in 2016 and 2017—by 2% in 2016 to $14.8 billion, and by a further 7% to $13.8 billion in 2017—we expect those to be still the second and fourth best years on record.

Over the medium and long term, we see Canadian agriculture benefiting from the increased global demand for more and better food, which is expected as a result of a growing global population and rising household incomes in developing economies. Over the past years, new technologies have increased productivity of Canadian farms.

With good income, increasing profits, and low interest rates, farm businesses have been investing in their operations, including purchasing farmland to expand their operations. This positive outlook has increased farmland values and debt.

However, since farm assets have increased to a much greater level than debt, farms' net worth has increased. In February, Statistics Canada released the Farm Financial Survey numbers for 2015. They show that while average debt increased to $600,000 in 2015, average farm assets climbed to $3.4 million, meaning that average farm net worth reached $2.8 million.

Producers' ability to manage their debt depends on their income. Given increases in farm incomes and low interest rates, we see that farms are generally in a very healthy position to service their debt. Over the past years, producers' incomes have grown much more than their interest expenses, meaning that they are in a much better position to meet their financial obligations.

Nonetheless, even in generally good times, farms are subject to several risks, such as weather and disease, as well as changes in commodity prices, exchange rates and interest rates. While interest rate risk is usually top of mind when talking about debt levels, in agriculture, it is actually crop prices and the Canadian exchange rate that have a much greater impact on farm financial health.

In recognition of the production and market risk beyond farmers' control, the federal, provincial, and territorial governments have put in place a suite of business risk management, or BRM, programs to assist farmers in dealing with these risks. Since 2013, these BRM programs have provided more than $5.6 billion in support.

AAFC's advance payments program, or APP, helps farmers manage their cash flow over the production year by providing access to low-interest cash advances. The loans give farmers flexibility to time the sale of their products based on the right market conditions, rather than the need for cash flow.

I'd like to talk briefly about young and beginning farmers. They, of course, are the future of the industry. Young farmers are more likely to be innovators, and more likely to invest in their operations. However, young and beginning farmers require access to significant financial resources to get started. To help young and beginning farmers, the federal government has in place a number of programs to facilitate access to capital, such as the Canadian Agricultural Loans Act, or CALA, which provides loan guarantees for investments. Also, as you'll hear more details shortly, Farm Credit Canada offers a number of special programs and services.

In addition, under Growing Forward 2, the government provides funding to the Canadian Young Farmers' Forum, Farm Management Canada, and provincially delivered cost-shared programming for resources to help farmers develop business plans and strengthen their management skills.

Canadian agriculture is changing and evolving at great speed. We see Canadian farmers adopting new technologies and taking advantage of new market opportunities here at home and around the world. Federal and provincial governments are supporting these efforts with programs that encourage the adoption of new technologies and practices, and strengthen required management skills. The result is greater capacity among farmers—those who are well-established and those entering the industry—to benefit from opportunities and to manage challenges and risks.

To summarize: the increasing debt levels that we see in agriculture are indicative of farmers using debt as a tool to increase their competitiveness and to grow. Producers' assets and net worth have increased much more than their debt levels. Canadian farms are generally in a good financial position, and the outlook for the sector remains positive.

Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, together with its portfolio partners and its provincial and territorial counterparts, has policies and programs in place to help current farm operators manage production and price risks, support young and beginning farmers in establishing and growing their operations, and assist farm families with the transfer of farm operations to the next generation.

Thank you.

I am looking forward to your questions following Mr. Hoffort's remarks.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Thank you, Mr. Rosser.

Mr. Michael Hoffort from Farm Credit Canada.

11:05 a.m.

Michael Hoffort President and Chief Executive Officer, Farm Credit Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good morning honourable members.

It's a pleasure to appear before the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food on behalf of Farm Credit Canada, FCC. My name is Michael Hoffort. I am the president and CEO of FCC. With me today is Jean-Philippe Gervais, our vice-president and chief agricultural economist.

Today, we want to share with you our insights on the debt level in Canada's agriculture sector, as well as provide some context and perspectives on some of the numbers, which Assistant Deputy Minister Tom Rosser referenced earlier in his remarks.

By way of background, FCC is a commercial crown corporation with more than 100,000 customers and a portfolio of approximately $30 billion. The vast majority of our customers are small to medium-sized family-run farm operations.

My family's story is rooted in agriculture. It is because of this heritage that I chose a career in the industry. After completing my education in agriculture economics at the University of Saskatchewan's College of Agriculture, I joined FCC as an account manager, and have spent nearly three decades serving the industry I am extremely passionate about.

As an account manager new to FCC, I cut my teeth working in the depth of the farm debt crisis of the 1980s, when most of our time was spent working with farm families to resolve financial challenges brought on by a perfect storm of record high interest rates, collapsing commodity prices, and, in many areas, severe drought. This experience of the industry, and all who worked through it, confirms the importance of today's topic.

Reflecting on our industry's history, and all the positive things that have taken place since those challenging days, it is not just financial relationships, it's the human element that drives me and our employees in offices across the country to do everything we can to ensure the success of our customers. At FCC, agriculture is our passion. We are focused on delivering financial solutions to farmers and farm families, and we know this is a significant responsibility.

Today, FCC holds over one quarter of Canada's total farm debt. We want to ensure our customers are successful, no matter what challenges they may face, or what stage they happen to be in their business life cycle, whether they are just starting out, expanding their operations, sustaining their farm size, or in transition to the next generation.

From my own experience, I know the vast majority of farm operations are passed down from generation to generation, and this continues to be the case, as confirmed in the last census of agriculture. It showed 98% of Canadian farms are family owned and operated, often in multi-family or multi-generational farm structures.

We pride ourselves in delivering customized products and services for the agriculture industry. Through the FCC young farmer loan and, more recently, our young entrepreneur loan, FCC is improving access to capital that allows young people to enter the agriculture value chain, grow their businesses, and pursue their dreams. Our transition loan builds on pre-existing relationships between a buyer and a seller, usually a patient seller such as a parent, relative, or neighbour, to help young farmers start or expand the farm with a lower than standard down payment.

We believe the future outlook of the Canadian agriculture industry is positive on the whole. Our confidence comes from an industry that is diversified in what it produces, augmented by Canada's international reputation for consistently producing safe, high-quality food. It's important to note that while demand for agriculture commodities remains strong, commodity prices have declined over the past couple of years due to increasing world supplies. A weaker Canadian dollar relative to the U.S. dollar continues to partially shield Canadian producers from softer commodity prices that are strongly influenced by the dynamics of the U.S. market.

At FCC, we also understand agriculture is a cyclical business. We stand by our customers through all market conditions and throughout every phase of their business life cycle. We take a long-term view of agriculture. We monitor current trends, and provide economic insights and forecasts to help producers to make informed business decisions.

In recent years, we have largely looked through the lens of a booming farm economy, supported by a long stretch of increased production, strong demand for agriculture commodities, and favourable interest rates. At the same time, Canadian producers have made significant investments in land and technology, and diversified their operations. Farmers have always been quick to adopt new technology, which is why Canada is ranked second in global agriculture sustainability, according to a recent study by the intelligence unit of The Economist.

During this period, farm asset appreciation has mostly kept pace with farm debt levels. This is largely due to the continued appreciation of a key asset, farmland. According to our latest annual farmland values report, which we released just yesterday, the average value of farmland across Canada increased by 7.9%, the latest increase in a 25-year trend.

However, the report also shows that substantial farmland value increases of recent years are losing steam. This is the third consecutive year the rate of increase declined year over year and is in line with our expectations of a soft landing for the farmland market.

Strong income, increased profitability, and low interest rates have pushed up asset values, which in turn drive up demand for credit. As a result, in 2015 we saw an increase in farm debt that for the first time in many years exceeded farm asset appreciation. Yet the ratio of debt to asset values in 2015 remains lower than the 10-year average.

A low ratio provides financial flexibility to Canadian agriculture to leverage investment opportunities or face unexpected challenges that could arise. It is also important to emphasize that net worth in Canadian agriculture also kept rising, a sign of a healthy industry.

As Canada's leading provider of agricultural financing, we encourage producers to allow for flexibility in their balance sheet, as well as ensure sufficient working capital exists to guard against unfavourable changes in economic and market conditions.

While a low debt-to-asset ratio is healthy, this is nonetheless a secondary measure of the ability to repay debt. A primary measure is always income. On that basis, the outlook for Canadian agriculture is positive. The global demand for agriculture products remains strong. Minimal increases in farm input costs as well as a low Canadian dollar should continue to buffer producers from the impact of possibly lower cash receipts.

Even so, we are actively encouraging farmers to identify efficiencies in their operations to counter any potential drop in revenue and ensure the long-term profitability of their operations. We recognize Canada's producers and agribusiness operators use a number of strategies to manage risk in an increasingly sophisticated and dynamic industry. FCC offers a wide variety of free learning opportunities to help producers make effective business decisions, including workshops designed to help producers improve their bottom line and strengthen their business.

This is what makes FCC unique among other lending institutions. We are a stable and steady presence in the marketplace. We are not publicly traded, we are accountable to our shareholder, the Government of Canada, and our only focus is on the success of Canadian agriculture and our customers.

Our business is built on strong customer relationships. This means taking the time to understand our customers' business and ensuring that they have the products and services they need to grow their farm operations and agribusinesses.

It also means lending responsibly by making good loans to producers with solid business plans and encouraging our customers to have a formal risk management plan. Because of this practice and our focus on risk management, it bears noting that more than 99% of FCC's portfolio is performing and in good standing, which means customers are paying back their loans as per the agreed-upon terms.

While we know sector challenges exist, our industry is still in a very strong position. With this responsibility, it's important we also extend a cautionary message to the industry about the current trends and to ensure individual producers have the knowledge and the tools they need to prepare for tighter and more volatile times.

As a proactive measure, FCC has recently published a series of weekly blog posts on farm financial fitness, copies of which we have provided to the committee today. Developed by our agriculture economics team, these posts provide producers with valuable information, tips, and tools, and advice on how to manage their farm business and operations, plan for unexpected challenges, and work through them.

At FCC we are aware that other financial institutions play a significant role in the agriculture lending market. We believe that healthy marketplace competition and a choice of financing options is good for all Canadian farmers and agribusiness.

Agriculture is a robust contributor to the economy that requires capital from all of us: banks, credit unions, and FCC to achieve its full potential. That said, FCC is the only financial institution solely dedicated to advancing the business of agriculture, and we've done this successfully for the past 57 years. We add value to our commitment to provide expert knowledge and services for the evolving needs of the people who work in this great industry every day. No matter what changes take place, FCC will continue to serve as a strong and stable partner to the Canadian agriculture industry.

At FCC, agriculture is our business, and we will support Canadian producers in the face of challenging circumstances and celebrate their success as well.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today. I look forward to any questions the committee may have.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Thank you, Mr. Hoffort.

We will start our questions by welcoming Mr. Shipley back to this hemisphere. I'll give you the first six minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to our witnesses.

In the background, farm debt in Canada accumulated about a 600% increase from 1981 to 2015, some 24 years. It stabilized fairly well up until about 1995, and then it started to escalate up. Do you have any indications of where that takes us now, 2015 to 2020, and what the outcomes of that might be?

11:15 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Farm Credit Canada

Michael Hoffort

I'll turn that over to our economist, J.P. Gervais. We do some work in that area.

11:15 a.m.

Jean-Philippe Gervais Vice-President and Chief Agricultural Economist, Farm Credit Canada

No doubt there's been a tremendous increase in farm debt, but I would say that this coincides as well with the increase in farm cash receipts that we've witnessed as well, with record highs reached in recent years. I think you did mention 1994 as sort of a starting point of the growth. If you look at the last 10 years, 2005 to 2015, there's been a tremendous growth in farm cash receipts, which I think speaks to the success of the industry.

As to addressing where that takes us from now, I think we need to have realistic expectations about the next 10 years. As much as we are optimistic about the future, I think it's more realistic to expect that the next 10 years will not necessarily look exactly like the past 10 years. The past 10 have been influenced by really strong prices. A bit weaker prices...and I think the growth in cash receipts or income at the farm level will come mostly from productivity, which is driven by the investments that have been made up to now.

To me, that means we're well positioned for success, but it's certainly something to monitor in the future.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

One of the things I always get a little bit concerned about, I guess, is the cash flow. We can have all the net worth we want, but the issue is that we still have to pay the bill. The concern, when we watch land prices move from $1,000 an acre to $20,000 an acre, is the cash flow. I know it gets extenuated out onto assets that are owned. Is it a concern in terms of, one, the interest rate?

To Farm Credit, what is the tipping point on interest, or the trip for the red flag—the point at which a number of producers will start to get into trouble?

11:20 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Farm Credit Canada

Michael Hoffort

Yes, it's something we also do work on in terms of stress-testing loans that we would make for producers and our overall portfolio.

The answer to that question really revolves around how far it goes and how fast it moves. If there's very little time to adjust, I think that creates more challenges, for sure. Our expectation is that 100 basis points or even 200 basis points of increase in interest rates over a period of several years is something that the industry would be able to adjust to. If we move very rapidly through that same type of a cycle, 200 basis points over several months versus years, I think that would put some pressure on some operations to adjust. There is flexibility within our book. Based on the average amortization we would do on a new mortgage loan it would be less than 20 years.

So in terms of people stretching out their loans and some of the options we would have to adjust to that, I think there are lots of things we could do from a financial institution perspective to help provide some cash for relief in a really extreme circumstance. But yes, a return to what would be maybe more normal rates historically, in a very rapid fashion, would create some cash flow challenges, without a doubt.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Those are not large increases in interest. I remember the 1980s.

11:20 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Farm Credit Canada

Michael Hoffort

Agreed. But going from three to four up to six to seven would be a significant adjustment, without even getting close to some of those double digits we would have experienced back in those days.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

We have a program that works around....

Well, first of all, do you track how many people use the advance payment program, Mr. Rosser?

11:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada

Tom Rosser

No, I'm afraid I don't have the number off the top of my head, but I would be happy to get you some information on the utilization of that program. We can certainly get that information for you, unless Kara knows—

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

I think it's a program that's well advertised, I'm just not sure how many actually use it. Obviously it has a great benefit. A government will often get asked, if it doesn't give enough, if it should be a higher limit because of the size of the operations. I would just be interested in knowing how many utilize it. Perhaps you could provide that.

11:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada

Tom Rosser

Mr. Chair, absolutely we can get back to the committee on that, in short order.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Okay.

Mr. Hoffort, once in a while I'll hear about an “interest only” loan. How does that work, and who would be availing themselves of that?

11:20 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Farm Credit Canada

Michael Hoffort

We have a few products in that category.

One that we would have marketed in years past is called plant now, pay later. Think of a vineyard that's getting established. We would do the financing. It would be interest-only for a period of say three years, as an example. Principal payments would start to kick in once the income started to flow through, similar to that of a construction loan.

We have another loan product available called the advancer, which has some interest-only attributes to it. It is a small percentage of our book, but it is available to all producers, typically focused on producers trying to balance an overall balance sheet, in terms of that side of things. It is available, as I said, to all of our customers.

The use rate would be well less than 20% in terms of the uptake on all of our products in that interest-only category, though.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Thank you, Mr. Hoffort and Mr. Shipley. The time is up.

Mr. Peschisolido, for six minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Peschisolido Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC

Mr. Chair, thank you.

Guys, thank you for appearing before us on a very important issue. I have a lot of farmers in my neck of the woods, on the east part of the riding, Steveston—Richmond East.

I wanted to follow up a little bit on Mr. Shipley's question, but talk about the nature of our country. The farming industry in B.C. is different from that of Atlantic Canada, which is different from that of Quebec, Ontario, and the Prairies.

Have you found any regional differences? This can go to both Agriculture Canada and Farm Credit. Is there a strategy in place to deal with that?

11:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Farm Credit Canada

Michael Hoffort

I can address that, Mr. Chair, to start.

We would see differences in terms of farm debt levels, based on industry as well as on geographic location and income potential. Typically it all revolves, though, around that income potential. You'll see it in ridings. The Lower Mainland of B.C. will be a high-priced land area, and stuff like that, very confined, but from an income-opportunity perspective, it matches up with some of that piece, as well.

We would see differences depending on whether it's a prairie grains and oilseeds farm, a cash crop in Ontario, or a dairy in Quebec. All of these operations would have slight differences in the amount of debt they would carry, their leverage ratios, but it would be consistent with what you'd expect from stability of income and also from income opportunity and whatnot. That would be a key driver on those decisions.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Peschisolido Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC

Would there be any difference between a smaller operation and a bigger one? Does that impact on efficiency, on ability to carry debt?

11:25 a.m.

Vice-President and Chief Agricultural Economist, Farm Credit Canada

Jean-Philippe Gervais

Eighteen months ago we released a dairy report, basically looking at the outlook for the dairy industry. One of the things we had in this report looked at the efficiency ratio, operating costs over revenues for small, medium, and large enterprises.

What we found was that if you measure production efficiency in terms of operating expenses versus revenues, it doesn't matter if you're small, medium, or large. It doesn't mean that a small operation will turn as much profit as a large one. What it means is that we have small producers that are very efficient, and large producers that have a bit of room to improve on their efficiency. The size of the operation, when it comes to efficiency, doesn't matter much, especially for dairy. I would say that it's the same across our portfolio for grains and oilseeds, and other sectors as well.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Joe Peschisolido Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC

You also talked about the differences in sectors.

In Richmond East we have a lot of berries, but we also have cabbage. We have some dairy, and even some cattle.

Have you found a difference in the sector, and if so, what can we do to be helpful? We all have to eat, and I prefer to buy our stuff from Canada rather than from overseas.

11:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Farm Credit Canada

Michael Hoffort

From a farm debt perspective, sector-wise, as I say, it does come a little bit more into the structure of the industry. You might find that a dairy operation or a poultry operation might have a little bit higher leverage ratio, just because of the consistency of some of the income expectations prevalent in that industry. I don't think it necessarily puts them in a higher-risk category than that of a grains and oilseeds farm, which has more income fluctuations based on production risks that can take place there.

You do see some subtle differences between the industries, but I don't know if I could really point to something from a policy perspective that you'd be able to drive into that would make some substantial headway.