Evidence of meeting #85 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was great.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Elena Bennett  Associate Professor, Natural Resource Sciences, As an Individual
Aubert Michaud  Soil and Water Conservation Scientist, Research and Development Institute for the Agri-environment
Gordon McKenna  Board Member, East Prince Agri-Environment Association
Jason Webster  Vice-Chair, East Prince Agri-Environment Association
Sean Smukler  Assistant Professor, Junior Chair of Agriculture and Environment of the University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Andrea McKenna  Manager, East Prince Agri-Environment Association

3:55 p.m.

Soil and Water Conservation Scientist, Research and Development Institute for the Agri-environment

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC

Thank you very much for your testimony.

I represent a very agricultural riding. In fact, 85% of the land of the Shefford riding is considered an agricultural sector. Obviously, I speak regularly with producers, and they are concerned about climate change. It undoubtedly creates some insecurity.

However, many also talk to me about possibilities. As you said, the agricultural sector is extremely resilient, but it is always ready to come up with solutions and adapt to the different constraints it faces.

Could you talk to me about these possibilities? Dr. Michaud, since you briefly discussed this at the start of your presentation, perhaps Dr. Bennett could answer my question first.

What do you think about the possibility that our agricultural producers could increase their production? Clearly, they still want to feed the people of Canada, and there are a lot of possibilities on the world stage right now. How do you see the opportunities that the agricultural sector has for increasing its production?

I'll hear from you first, Dr. Bennett, and Dr. Michaud could respond afterwards.

3:55 p.m.

Associate Professor, Natural Resource Sciences, As an Individual

Dr. Elena Bennett

Thank you.

One main opportunity right now for Canadian agriculture is the longer growing season, the soils that are warming earlier, and the opportunity that provides both to plant earlier and to plant different crops. That represents a great opportunity if our farming communities can adjust to it.

Then the cause for concern, of course, is that despite the best models, we still don't know exactly what's going to happen or when. People have great concern about whether they're going to be able to adapt rapidly enough. I think that's really a question of whether we're able to put measures in place that enable that kind of rapid adaptation. Over and over again we've seen farmers and farming communities doing a great job of adapting and picking up new technology, but every time that's done it requires a great input of capital, both for knowledge and for technology—for, say, tractors. We need to provide opportunities to allow farmers to do the sorts of innovations they think are necessary.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC

Dr. Michaud, would you like to add anything?

3:55 p.m.

Soil and Water Conservation Scientist, Research and Development Institute for the Agri-environment

Dr. Aubert Michaud

Yes, I would.

In short, increased growth of a few weeks at the beginning and end of the season will certainly increase yields. And we're already seeing this in vegetable production, where the growing season has increased by about two weeks. This will certainly extend some crops. I'm thinking of vineyard production in your riding, for instance.

However, I would like to see an opportunity to increase the feasibility of agricultural conservation practice. I'm thinking of cover crops. For instance, this might involve sowing clover with small grains to rehabilitate the soil. I'm thinking of the development of application windows, especially during the summer period, to limit the compaction of soils during pre-planting in the spring or in the late autumn

I believe there are real opportunities to capitalize on this wider window to increase the feasibility of conservation farming practices, which will be really beneficial for farm businesses in the long run.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC

I'm still interested in Canada's global competitiveness in agriculture.

Dr. Michaud, how do you see climate change here in Canada in terms of competitiveness? Of course, the agricultural sector provides very high quality products. Our products are in demand everywhere on the planet. There are challenges, certainly.

Tell me briefly about the potential position of our producers and, obviously, of the possibility that they are selling their products more globally.

4 p.m.

Soil and Water Conservation Scientist, Research and Development Institute for the Agri-environment

Dr. Aubert Michaud

There are certainly opportunities for increased performance. There was also, possibly, a reduction in some production costs. The benefits are there. In terms of management, water is relatively abundant in Quebec. This positions us very well, among other things, in terms of vegetable production. Everyone knows the problematic situation Californians are experiencing at the moment, for example.

Certainly, there are market shares to be had in some sectors.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC

This is interesting. Thank you very much.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Thank you, Mr. Breton.

Thank you, Mr. Michaud.

The floor now goes to Ms. Brosseau, for six minutes.

4 p.m.

NDP

Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank our two witnesses, Mr. Michaud and Ms. Bennett.

Your testimony to the committee and your expertise are really interesting.

Let me turn to you first, Mr. Michaud.

In my opinion, to really tackle the problems of climate change, there must be collaboration and leadership at municipal, provincial, and federal levels. Everyone has to be heading in the same direction.

Can you tell us, according to your research and your expertise, what role the federal government should be playing?

4 p.m.

Soil and Water Conservation Scientist, Research and Development Institute for the Agri-environment

Dr. Aubert Michaud

Your question is very pertinent.

The majority of the issues involve a number of players, as is also often the case for the solutions. One of the things I talked about was land development. There are a lot of concerns about this in the municipal world. It is also a concern shared by farmers. Subsoil drainage is perhaps their main asset in terms of the productivity of their crops. Clearly, the management of waterways and agricultural land is a concern for municipalities and regions, for provincial authorities, and even for federal regulations.

The techniques are often known, but it is becoming difficult to really coordinate the measures and even to make sure that the technical, financial and regulatory frameworks are consistent.

It is not for me, as a scientist, to comment on the federal government's positions. However, I can say that there are certainly major factors of infrastructure and sustainable investments with land and waterway management, for example.

In addition, federal environmental regulations are affected in these projects. It is important that the regulations put limits on problematic situations, but also that they do not prevent us from innovating and trying new approaches, for waterway management, for example.

4 p.m.

NDP

Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

We will soon have the next agricultural policy framework. The government should perhaps be investing more in education and the adoption of best practices.

In recent sessions, during our study on climate change, witnesses from the United States made presentations to the committee. One of the experts we heard from explained to us that the United States compensates producers who adopt measures along those lines, who plant trees and who move more towards agroforestry.

In your opinion, is compensating producers who make more sustainable choices a practice that the federal government could adopt?

4:05 p.m.

Soil and Water Conservation Scientist, Research and Development Institute for the Agri-environment

Dr. Aubert Michaud

Certainly.

Ms. Bennett talked about the benefits of environmental goods and services. I have in mind a particular pilot project on the benefits of governmental goods and services in the RCM of Brome-Missisquoi. The initiative brings together 40 or so farming companies, along 80km of river frontage, with more than 700 structures to control runoff. The initiative has remarkable scope.

I can testify to the fact that it has been a pleasure for us to support agricultural communities in their management projects. The producers are volunteers and respond well to financial incentives. So it is important to note that financial incentives are effective, as is technical support.

The policy framework called Growing Forward 2 provides a lot of support with applied research and farm-based demonstration networks. An agri-environmental consulting service network has been set up. In Quebec, agri-environmental advisory clubs are a major vehicle for the transference of knowledge and technical support. I feel that financial levers and technical support are both important.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

Thank you, Mr. Michaud.

Madam Bennett, I was wondering if you could elaborate a little bit more on incentivizing farmers and producers to adopt better practices. A lot of farmers are doing that right now, but it might be a way to get more people on board.

I also have a second question. Hopefully I'll have time, Mr. Chair.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

You have 45 seconds, actually.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Ruth Ellen Brosseau NDP Berthier—Maskinongé, QC

I'll ask it anyway and see if she can respond.

The government, in the Barton report, said that they want to increase exports from $55 billion in 2015 to $75 billion in 2025. Can we do that if we continue on the same path, while still trying to reduce the effects of climate change? Is that attainable, or does that need a complete overhaul and different leadership?

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Could we have a quick response, please?

4:05 p.m.

Associate Professor, Natural Resource Sciences, As an Individual

Dr. Elena Bennett

It strikes me that this would be a very large increase to be able to make without a lot of other changes.

You were asking earlier about how we can organize across levels of government to achieve the sorts of things we want to achieve in farming, including these sorts of increases, but also, I think, including other things. I guess what occurs to me is that there are many ways you could get from $55 billion to $75 billion, and a lot of them would involve dramatically reducing the natural capital. The question was asked earlier about the quality of soils and the quality of water, and whether we even know what the quality of our soils and water is—

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Thank you, Madam Bennett.

Mr. Drouin, you have six minutes.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have enjoyed our colleagues' remarks.

Mr. Michaud, as I read your presentation, I wondered how we could improve the situation, first in terms of reducing the impact of climate change. During our study, I have noticed that zero tillage is more commonly practiced in the west of Canada than in the east. Could you tell me about the situation in Quebec? I am not from Quebec, but my part of Ontario is very close.

Is the practice also used less in Quebec than in western Canada?

4:05 p.m.

Soil and Water Conservation Scientist, Research and Development Institute for the Agri-environment

Dr. Aubert Michaud

That is indeed the case. Your question is very pertinent.

I would quickly like to recall the report on soil conservation published by the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry in 1984. It is called “Soil at Risk: Canada's Eroding Future”, or the Sparrow Report. Perhaps you have seen the document, which certainly had an effect on the development of zero tillage in the 1980s.

We are aware that, in the west, the practice is now almost the norm. Even in Quebec, it involves a little more than 50% of the land. Specifically, the dominant rotation is corn-soybeans. In general, soybeans lend themselves to no-till better, but, unfortunately, they leave very little crop residue on the surface of the soil. Moreover, if farm fertilizers are not added, we see an increased loss of phosphorous in the surface run-off.

Direct seeding really is an interesting approach but you have to consider diversifying or improving the rotation. Earlier, I talked about introducing small grains, for example. Unfortunately, they have been in a significant decline, particularly wheat and barley. Certainly, a very interesting market can be developed, with benefits for soil conservation. That is so for winter grain in Quebec, for example, where the climate will be better. As a result, other cover crops can be introduced, because the practice is much less effective with soybeans and corn.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

I think that it is the same for us, that soybean and corn crops are the dominant ones in our fields.

I just want to ask you one more question.

At our last committee meeting, one of the witnesses talked about forest cover. He was not talking about forests on agricultural land. However, he was talking about sacrificing some fields to grow trees and even to combine a corn crop with certain trees.

According to your research, would that improve the organic matter on agricultural land, or not really? It would probably be the case near where the trees are planted.

4:10 p.m.

Soil and Water Conservation Scientist, Research and Development Institute for the Agri-environment

Dr. Aubert Michaud

Actually, there are two questions there.

Trees certainly have their place in the system and specifically in terms of river management when they are next to waterways. We know that developing a riparian strip with trees or shrubs breaks the hydrologic connection between the fields and the waterway, which would have a beneficial effect on the drainage of the land and the retention of nutrients. That has also been demonstrated in some concerted actions taken in watersheds.

In terms of the intercropping and the major crops with trees, I don't think the practice is feasible for everyone. However, it is certain that some areas of agricultural land are particularly vulnerable and perhaps unproductive when they are low-lying or poorly drained. They could certainly be well suited for sylviculture.

We have to have an overall vision for the integrated management of problematic watersheds. The quality of the soil and the water, the performance of the crops and the impact of agricultural activity on water quality downstream are all interrelated.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Thank you very much.

Dr. Bennett, I haven't forgot about you. I have a quick question on the role that precision farming can play, and if you've seen in your studies whether or not it can be opposite to resiliency for farming. I'm wondering if you've done any studies on that, and whether or not you see a big role that Canada can play.

4:10 p.m.

Associate Professor, Natural Resource Sciences, As an Individual

Dr. Elena Bennett

I haven't done studies on precision agriculture, but I am familiar with that literature. It does reduce the amount of fertilizer we use, but with great inputs of capital and great dependence on technology. There is a trade-off there between resilience and our ability to be flexible and adapt quickly, but it is decreasing our immediate near-term fertilizer use.