Agriculture Committee on Feb. 7th, 2018

[Dr. Tracy Misiewicz]

A pesticide is a pesticide. We know from research that many of the synthetic pesticides that are commonly used are more persistent and more toxic than most of the organic ones, but the thing that really makes a difference in organic systems is that organic farmers are required to use integrative pest management techniques first. They are required to use techniques that establish beneficial predator populations on their farms, and they use pesticides as more of a last resort.

[Joe Peschisolido, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Doctor, you mentioned pesticides. I really don't know what a pesticide is, and I'm assuming a lot of laymen don't either. Can you explain what it is?

[Dr. Tracy Misiewicz]

Yes. A pesticide is something that you apply to either kill an insect, weed, fungus, or pathogen that's attacking your crop, deter it, or reduce the population size.

[Joe Peschisolido, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Isn't that a good thing, because we're killing bad things?

[Dr. Tracy Misiewicz]

It is a good thing, but it can also disrupt many of the natural ecosystem processes that occur. Most pesticides have bad effects for their target populations but also for non-targeted populations. If we can control pests by increasing populations of beneficial predators like ladybugs, they eat the bad pests, and we won't have to use those extra inputs. It saves money for the farmers, and it's better for the environment.

[Joe Peschisolido, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

You mentioned the various lines of defence. Can you elaborate on that?

[Dr. Tracy Misiewicz]

The things that organic farmers do to encourage beneficial insect populations would be planting hedgerows or buffer strips, rotating their crops to create more diverse food for those beneficial predators, using native plants, and intercropping. All of those strategies will basically create food and habitat sources. This is in addition to using fewer pesticides, because, again, you don't want to accidentally kill your beneficial insects.

[Joe Peschisolido, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Tia, how would you respond to those who say that organic is just a fringe thing, that it's too expensive, and that it will never hit the economies of scale to feed people?

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Unfortunately, we'll have to leave that.

Thank you, Mr. Peschisolido and the panel.

Mr. MacGregor, you have six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I like the comment that was made, that there are not enough champions to help farmers change. I understand that for those who are going organic, they're very much swimming against the current. There's a paradigm that exists. Farming has been done in a certain way for so many decades. It has usually involved a lot of fertilizers and the intensive use of massive monocultures. As we've seen, that farming technique has not been very good for our soil and our water, and I think farmers are starting to realize that.

On Monday we had a representative from Fertilizer Canada here. I started off by saying that if we're looking at ways to lessen our impact on the environment, it seems our use of fertilizers is a good place to start. They require fossil fuels to be made, to be transported, and to be applied, and of course we've had dead zones created from too much runoff.

They have taken some steps to have more targeted use, but their contention is that you simply cannot get the same yield without the use of synthetic fertilizers with those kinds of inputs. I know that a lot of organic farmers are challenging that paradigm. I'm wondering, if we're looking for the research on the economies of scale where organic agriculture can work to.... We used Africa, for example, and the farmer who has two to three acres. He was saying that without fertilizers, they simply cannot make a profit.

Are there any specific examples you could point us to that challenge that existing way of thinking and say, “No, actually, we can do it”? I'll open it up to anyone who wants to start.

[Dr. Tracy Misiewicz]

I can start.

[Dr. Avinash Singh]

It's probably the U.S. example.

[Dr. Tracy Misiewicz]

Studies show that basically the longer a farm is in organic production, the higher the yields are. A study that recently came out showed that we've lost 133 billion tonnes of carbon from our soils worldwide over the last 1,200 years due to agricultural production, so a lot of farmers are starting on soils that have already been incredibly degraded due to poor agricultural practices.

I think that to say that we can't increase yields without synthetic fertilizers is false. I think there is a role for synthetic fertilizers to play, generally, in agriculture, but I think there are a lot of practices we can use over time that are going to build the health of the soil, build that organic matter, and build that nutrient base so that we do see over time that yields are rising. But we need to invest in getting there first. If you take degraded soils and you stop using fertilizers, you're not going to have a good yield.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Is there anything you'd like to add, Mr. Singh?

[Dr. Avinash Singh]

I'll just mention once again that, if we're talking about a more adverse climate, the smaller-scale farm has the ability to be far more robust. When we think of yields, when you have average climate, they can be fine. But when you have drought or flood conditions, that's where the organic farming systems tend to rise to the occasion, and their yields are equal if not greater.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

You mentioned in some of your testimony the ability to withstand changing patterns, the built-in resiliency model. It will affect farmers' bottom line if they don't need to buy synthetic fertilizer or use as much. Am I going down the right road here?

[Dr. Avinash Singh]

There's that, in combination with the fact that unfortunately most fertilizer companies recommend that a far greater rate of fertilizer is required, because they view the soil as being dead. If we start to understand that soil is living and can actually do a better job of holding on to those fertilizers, and then provide those fertilizers in a timely way to the plant, then even a responsible use of synthetic fertilizers is a way of maintaining good soil health and getting a bigger bang for your buck.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

In terms of the investments you would like to see made in research, in practical applications, does that mean you'd like to see the federal government set up specific test farms to use as a case study over multiple years? Is that kind of stuff going on? Do we need more of that?

[Dr. Avinash Singh]

There's no question that on most university campuses we will not find a field dedicated to organic research. It would be a great benefit to do some dedicated work on an organic farming system, because organic practices are one thing, but a system is a better representation of something more robust.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

The relationship between soil micro-oganisms and the fungi that are in there is very complex. How has the heavy use of fertilizers impacted that in the past? What are some of the efforts being made in the organic sector to revive the complex web that exists?

[Kimberly Cornish]

The application of fertilizer basically stops the process of the development of that web. The plants get what they need on the surface, their roots don't have to go down, and they don't develop the soil carbon through photosynthesis. The plant feeds the biology through liquid carbon, and that's what feeds the bacteria.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Ms. Cornish.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Mr. Poissant, you have six minutes.

[Jean-Claude Poissant, Liberal, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you for your comments and presentations. It's always interesting.

You know that you are also part of the recipe. We want to export up to $75 billion of food by 2025. I often wonder if there is a craze, if there is enough education with young people to recruit them and encourage them to get into organic farming.

I don't know who to ask the question. Whoever feels comfortable answering can do so.