Evidence of meeting #91 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-49.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sean Finn  Executive Vice-President, Corporate Services and Chief Legal Officer, Canadian National Railway Company
Michael Cory  Chief Operating Officer and Executive Vice-President, Canadian National Railway Company
Jeffrey Ellis  Chief Legal Officer and Corporate Secretary, Canadian Pacific Railway
James Clements  Vice-President, Strategic Planning and Transportation Services, Canadian Pacific Railway
Rick White  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Canola Growers Association
Ron Bonnett  President, Canadian Federation of Agriculture
Mark Dyck  Senior Director of Logistics, G3 Canada Limited
Tyler Bjornson  Consultant, Western Grain Elevator Association
Gerry Ritz  As an Individual
Jeff Nielsen  President, Grain Growers of Canada
Ian Boxall  Vice-President, Agricultural Producers Association of Saskatchewan
Warren Sekulic  Director, Alberta Wheat Commission
Daryl Fransoo  Director, Western Canadian Wheat Growers Association
Dan Mazier  President, Keystone Agricultural Producers

7:40 p.m.

Dan Mazier President, Keystone Agricultural Producers

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for having me here today to speak about this important issue in the grain transportation system.

My name is Dan Mazier. I'm the President of Keystone Agriculture Producers, which is Manitoba's general farm policy organization representing over 7,000 farm families. I'm also a grains and oilseeds farmer northeast of Brandon, Manitoba.

In 2013-14, Canada suffered from a grain transportation crisis that is estimated to have cost western Canadian farmers approximately $6.5 billion. When shippers—my grain buyers—are unable to readily move their commodities to port, they will begin offering farmers lower cash bids or no cash bids for their products, so although farmers are not the actual shippers ordering the railcars, they are the ones who end up bearing the costs of the poor rail service.

The Government of Canada responded to the 2013-14 crisis in several ways, including an order in council that penalized the railways for missing grain movement targets and an accelerated schedule for the statutory review of the Canada Transportation Act. Out of that review came several recommendations that were incorporated into Bill C-49, which passed in the House of Commons and presently sits before the Senate, as you know.

In 2013-14, the magnitude of the crisis caught many in government and industry off guard. This time around, we became aware much earlier of the challenges that railways have been having in moving our grain this year, largely because we now collect information on grain car orders and deliveries. This is done by a group called the Ag Transport Coalition, which reports weekly data on the number of grain cars ordered by shippers compared to the number of cars actually delivered by each railway.

According to Ag Transport Coalition data for Manitoba, six weeks ago, at the beginning of February, CP supplied 74% of cars ordered. So far, so good.

CN delivered 14%.

Things only got worse from there. In CP's worst week in February, they only managed to deliver 17% of ordered cars. In CN's worst week, they delivered 0% of their orders. On average, combined, the railways delivered only 29% of the cars that were supplied on the want week for the month of February, which created a backlog of 28,000 cars, or approximately 35,000 trucks, leaving more than 30 ships waiting for grain off the coast at the port of Vancouver.

How do we move forward and fix this problem before permanent damage to our country's reputation as a reliable shipper of grain is done again?

A good first step is to come up with a plan to get the grain moving. As the committee knows, a co-signed letter went out to the railways from Ministers Garneau and MacAulay requesting such a plan and a report back by March 15. I also understand that CN has taken a proactive approach in communicating with shippers with how they want to move forward. It all boils down to more people, more locomotives, and more products. I would encourage this committee to monitor and support the ministers, using all the tools possible, so that we can all keep pressure on the railways to keep the backlog cleared.

The elephant in the room is that we need to have Bill C-49 strengthened and passed as quickly as possible. As you know, it is presently before the Senate. Along with other farm stakeholders, I have given presentations with amendments that we argue will create a policy environment whereby the railways are held more accountable for their service failures and the impact they have on shippers.

I would like to point out that the current design on the long-haul interswitching option in Bill C-49 is being viewed as overly restrictive in terms of which shippers are eligible to apply for it. We are recommending clarifying the existing language for interswitching to ensure that it is as effective as possible for shippers to access this program.

The most impactful amendment we are recommending is to empower the Canadian Transportation Agency to initiate investigations into service issues when it becomes aware of them and to mandate solutions when necessary. Presently, the agency's ability to act under most provisions of the Canada Transportation Act is triggered by an application or a complaint.

For instance, although the agency is allowed to act on its own motion with respect to air carrier tariffs for international services, it can only examine and potentially correct issues with domestic tariff provisions in cases where an application has been received. Similarly, under section 116 of the Canada Transportation Act, the agency's power to order measures to address rail level-of-service issues is conditional upon receipt of complaint. An extension of the agency's own-motion authority would allow for a proactive initiative of inquiries when there is evidence that a problem might exist.

This may include statistical evidence, a pattern of complaints, or consistent credible media reports regarding the transportation service providers' financial difficulties or service failings. The authority would be particularly relevant to matters affecting more than one transportation service provider or user, for which the existing complaint-based process is not particularly well suited.

This measure was one of the recommendations made by David Emerson in 2016 in the report to the Government of Canada that Ron Bonnett alluded to earlier this afternoon. We agree that these measures are necessary to help resolve service-related challenges that appear to be inherent in a monopoly marketplace such as Canada's grain transportation system.

In addition to these service-related measures, we are requesting that soybeans and related products be added to the schedule 2 list of grains that are eligible to be covered under the maximum revenue entitlement. In Manitoba, with more than two million acres planted in 2017, soybeans represent our third-largest crop by area. Currently the transportation costs for soybeans are as much as 40% higher per car than the MRE-covered grains, with no promise of getting these cars. They are charging more, but we're still not getting those cars in the first place. There is no reason that the farmers, who have innovated and adapted to changing conditions, should be denied the same protection from price exploitation by an monopoly industry that other crops receive.

To conclude my remarks, I would like to make one point very clear.

It is critical that Bill C-49 pass with these amendments before the House rises in June. This way shippers and carriers will know what their obligations are under the law. They will make the needed investments to ensure that the 2018 crop is delivered to customers on time and that we do not suffer the same economic hardships as a country that we have now suffered twice in less than half a decade. The railways must face repercussions if they fail to meet acceptable service standards. They must not be allowed to gouge captive shippers of soybeans. Their performance must continue to be carefully monitored and action must be taken when they fail.

In Canada our growing season is very short. Our seeding and harvest windows are narrow and it is difficult to predict how long they will last. To deal with this challenge, we invest more in equipment than nearly any other farmer in the world, and when the conditions are right, we work all day and all night to get the crop off the field and into the bin. I fully expect the railways to make investments necessary to get the job done, and if it requires senators and members of Parliament to work all day and night to get Bill C-49 strengthened and passed into law, then I expect that of you as well.

Canada's economic well-being is critically tied to rail transportation. Do not shy away from your responsibility to ensure that the Canada Transportation Act addresses the challenges we face and ensures that Canada's economy can grow to its full potential.

Thank you very much for your time and attention. I look forward to your questions.

7:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Thank you, Mr. Mazier.

We shall start our question round.

Mr. Berthold, you have six minutes.

7:50 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

This is our last hour to consider this urgent situation.

After listening to the witnesses this afternoon, I have a fairly direct question, for all of you.

Is it possible to save the farmers' current season or not? Do you think we have all the necessary tools to do so or would you agree with Mr. Mazier that it is too late to save the current season and that we must now do whatever we can to safeguard the next season?

What are your thoughts about that?

7:50 p.m.

Director, Western Canadian Wheat Growers Association

Daryl Fransoo

You know, if we're talking about something like an order in council, I think we're too late for that. Unfortunately, we've probably missed the boat. When this topic was really brought to light, say three weeks ago, there would have been the opportunity, but in that respect we're definitely too late. With road bans coming up and planting season coming up, we are going to deliver less grain. It's just a fact we have to get the crop in, and we can't run on roads that aren't made for trucks to run on. An order in council or something to that effect would be no benefit now, but it might have been or it would have been a month ago.

7:50 p.m.

Director, Alberta Wheat Commission

Warren Sekulic

I think Daryl is right. I don't think you can save this season. I don't think something like an order in council would necessarily be the way to go.

There was talk about infrastructure spending earlier on today. If you want to spend money on infrastructure, send us down those roads this spring and force us to haul grain in two weeks. Then I would be applying for an infrastructure grant for my farm, because it would tear the heck out of the yard, the roads, and the fields. It would be bad.

7:50 p.m.

President, Keystone Agricultural Producers

Dan Mazier

We're 28,000 cars behind. To fix this, the plan in October was 5,000 cars per week. We're going to be 500 cars per week over, 1,000 cars per week over. That's 5,500 to 6,000 cars that they can do for the next however many weeks until August.

I don't know. Is there enough room on our farms to accept the new crop? That's where we could have some real trouble. As far as trying to save it, we have time, but the railways really have to perform at top notch. If past practice is any indication, I highly doubt it.

7:50 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

I am shocked.

I'm angry, really angry about that, because we told them to act. We told them a lot of times, over and over. This season is failing because of the lack of action by the Liberals. I don't want ask you to be political; I can't. I'll do it.

We told them in June of last year to split the bill, to pass just some amendments that you require. The Liberals defeated all the amendments we proposed. Now you are asking them again to make these amendments to Bill C-49. I hope that this time they will accept, if we want to fix the problem for the long term. I think you should work a lot with the Liberals and try to convince them to accept those amendments, because otherwise you will have another bad season next year.

What is happening is offensive. We asked for an emergency meeting three weeks ago. You are saying we might have been able to change the course of things three weeks ago. Mr. Sekulic, you might have been spared one of the many delays you mentioned. Unfortunately, someone said it was not a rush and that we would have the meeting on March 19.

We have to send a very clear message right away. We have to stop playing games with western grain producers. We have to work to make sure the grain gets to market. It is the government's responsibility. It is our responsibility as a committee to demand that the government ensure that the farmers' grain gets moving so they can be paid. We are playing games with Canada's reputation and with the farmers' reputation.

Mr. Sekulic, how does it feel as a young farmer to see your debts mounting while you are unable to sell your crops? How do you deal with that, in your family? How do you feel?

7:55 p.m.

Director, Alberta Wheat Commission

Warren Sekulic

It's stressful. It's really stressful, especially in the light that we....

I learned my lessons really hard in 2013-14. I planned my sales. I generally sell the vast majority of my crop in October, November, and December, in anticipation of moving it by March. I have to plan for that every year. I shouldn't be planning for railway risk. I don't think I should be, anyway, but I do, and it can be quite stressful.

I have a lot of canola that is supposed to move in March. I was told by my elevator that it probably won't move until the middle of April, and I won't be moving much in the middle of April because I'm far north. The thaw generally comes a little later than in other parts of Alberta.

7:55 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

Okay.

What do you think, Mr. Fransoo?

7:55 p.m.

Director, Western Canadian Wheat Growers Association

Daryl Fransoo

I echo those statements. I call it non-partisan, but there are always some politics at play. Maybe the boat was missed on a couple of things early on. It shouldn't have been an omnibus bill. We know that, but let's learn from those mistakes right now. It's a win-win for everyone. It's a win for this side of the table, that side of the table, and the other side of the table to get this bill passed as soon as we can.

7:55 p.m.

Conservative

Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

I hope that amendment will pass too.

7:55 p.m.

Director, Western Canadian Wheat Growers Association

Daryl Fransoo

Right. It definitely does strengthen the bill tremendously.

If the amendments were to hold up the bill for some amount of time or an indefinite amount of time, I could do without them, but it shouldn't be that big of an issue to pass those few amendments we're asking for, and the bill, and have it done by the time that you guys rise for the summer.

7:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan

Thank you, Mr. Fransoo.

Thank you, Mr. Berthold.

Now it's Mr. Longfield for six minutes.

March 19th, 2018 / 7:55 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thank you for coming the distance you have at this time of year. It really shows the commitment to your community, and we really appreciate your staying for this meeting.

I don't want to get into the partisan discussion about Conservatives in the other place or us in the House of Commons. We are trying to solve a problem for you. We do need to see some action going forward, and I think we're talking about that today.

What I'm very interested in is how you discuss these things as a group. How do you interact with your neighbours and farmers down the road?

I'm thinking of what used to go on in the Petro-Canada in Colonsay, Saskatchewan, at lunch time. They would talk about what was going on in the fields, who was late getting stuff in, and whose wife was kicking their butt because they weren't out in the field that day. There were conversations around the dinner table at noon in Colonsay. How do you have those conversations among farmers, and what's the opportunity to involve the larger supply chain, the shippers, the storage people? How do you collaborate?

7:55 p.m.

Director, Alberta Wheat Commission

Warren Sekulic

We're in constant contact with our elevator agents and each other. I have a whole bunch of friends on Messenger, and we talk multiple times a day. We talk a heck of a lot about this, about the commissions, the press releases, the surveys. This is how we get paid, so it's a significant issue that gets talked about a lot.

7:55 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON

But it's likely missing people at the table.

Look at this as a supply chain. If your productivity is increasing, you're putting a lot more through your farm than you used to put through, and the system isn't handling it. Then throw in a couple of weather events or other things that stop things from moving so that cars don't get to the site on time. How do we have that full discussion to make sure we get the issues identified before they're blowing up in our faces?

8 p.m.

President, Keystone Agricultural Producers

Dan Mazier

It's quite interesting. In late 2014, we established the Ag Transport Coalition. That was the first time we had a window into what the shippers were actually requesting, into the demand. We were told at that time, and it went on for a couple of years, that they make up a plan. It starts in June, July, when we're going to sow our crops. They know how many acres are sown out there.

Well, they had that same plan this fall. It was supposed to be 5,000 cars. The problem is, when it starts messing up.... I remember the meeting very clearly this October, when CN said, “Well, we've got good news and bad news.” They said they had projected 2% growth in the economy and they got 13%, so they were sorry, but they had to do some catching up.

I just can't get over the missed opportunities we've had. This is the second time in five years.

8 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON

The reality is that we can't shift all resources to grain because other sectors need cars as well.

8 p.m.

President, Keystone Agricultural Producers

Dan Mazier

But they cut back way too much on their capital. They cut back on their staffing and on their power.

8 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON

Sure, and I'm not saying.... We need to serve the grain industry, but in terms of how we get that conversation about capital forecasting.... To avoid future problems, if we continue to have bumper crops.... We've exceeded 2013-14 in last year's crop. We're looking at the same numbers, or even more, in this coming year.

You guys are young farmers. You're the start of a generation of farmers who are going to face these issues. We need to have a better way of governing so that among you, us, and the shippers we all know what's going on. It shouldn't be at the end of the season that we figure out we have a problem.

8 p.m.

Director, Western Canadian Wheat Growers Association

Daryl Fransoo

They definitely missed the ball on forecasting this time, but there's no incentive for them to spend money on capacity like that when we can't hit their bottom line. That's what some of Bill C-49 will do. We'll be able to hit them where it hurts, and maybe they will spend more money on forecasting or maybe they won't be so long to acquire resources, because they'll know there is some loss to be had.

I definitely agree that we have to move all commodities. Our economy depends on all of them. As I said, that includes getting pipelines built. I think that will take some capacity off the rail line, which could then be used for grain.

8 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON

My question earlier to one of the witnesses from the rails was that the penalties aren't going to increase our throughput. We have to increase our throughput before we get to that stage.

8 p.m.

President, Keystone Agricultural Producers

Dan Mazier

Giving the CTA more power to investigate beforehand is a key. I think that's probably the amendment to make the biggest fundamental change in how we look at this.

8 p.m.

Liberal

Lloyd Longfield Liberal Guelph, ON

Do you mean the structure of the CTA?

8 p.m.

President, Keystone Agricultural Producers