Agriculture Committee on April 16th, 2018

[Fred Gorrell]

That impression exists. Actually, competition between Canadian products and imports is stronger, which causes more stress.

That being said, Canada is the fifth largest exporter in the world, but it is also the fifth largest importer.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

If I understand how that works, under international agreements, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency gives authorization to export Canadian products abroad.

Is that it?

[Fred Gorrell]

Yes.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Okay.

Do you think the level of reliability of the food inspection agencies in all countries with which Canada has free trade agreements is the same?

[Fred Gorrell]

If you're talking about countries with which we have free trade agreements, the answer is yes.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

In terms of inspection and the number of inspectors, are all the agencies the same? Are some agencies more active than others?

[Fred Gorrell]

I'll ask my colleague to answer your question.

[Frédéric Seppey, Assistant Deputy Minister, Market and Industry Services Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

I think I understand your concern on behalf of certain producer groups.

Canada's system is one of our best business cards for exports. Our regulatory system is based on facts and science. The Canadian Food Inspection Agency ensures that its decisions are based on science and facts, whether for imports or for export certificates.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Mr. Seppey, I have to interrupt you.

[Frédéric Seppey]

Okay. I will have other opportunities to talk about it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Yes.

We'll go to Mr. MacGregor.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I'd like to thank all the witnesses for appearing before the committee today.

Mr. Gorrell, I want to go through a few of the statements you made in your remarks. You said that members of the Canadian agriculture sector stress that it is the avoidance or resolution of non-tariff barriers that will ultimately make the difference between achieving commercially viable access to critical export markets, or not.

When we're seeking that access, there's always a quid pro quo. Other countries are seeking access to our markets, so it goes both ways.

[Fred Gorrell]

That's right.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

You also said that regulatory work to create predictable, science-based rules and regulations is increasingly important for the Canadian agri-food sector to gain access to foreign markets, and likewise they're seeking access to our market.

Going back to the beginning, keeping in mind those two statements, you said that in free trade agreements, Canada has two main objectives. We want to protect the ability to take the measures necessary to keep Canadians safe, and we want to encourage the adoption of science-based and risk-based sanitary and phytosanitary measures.

Keeping all of those in context, it sometimes seems the CFIA has a difficult balancing act between corporate bodies. In many cases the existence of a national border may seem like an inconvenience, because it has operations all around the world. You have corporate interests that seek to move product to maximize profit, but then you have the populations of each country, which may have differing interests and concerns.

Looking at your mandate and the competing interests between possibly the corporate world and what the consumer world wants, how do you achieve that balance? Ultimately, what is it that guides you in trying to find that balance between what may be competing interests?

[Fred Gorrell]

There's a lot in your question. To help clarify this, first of all, one of the things that has helped the food inspection agency, which, as I've indicated, is responsible both for importations and for exportations, is that at the same time there is the creation of the new international affairs branch. I report both to the president of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency and to the deputy minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada. It has helped by bringing together the resources of both the Canadian Food Inspection Agency and Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada. We're better placed to understand what is needed both for our exports and for the imports.

I think you made a very good point, which is that in the trading world we live in, when someone wants to export, someone wants to import. It's not quid pro quo, not at all, but at the same time, as I said in my first question, they have to respect the standards in Canada when they're based on the risks. The CFIA is able to look at the importations and the exportations independently, but they're not done in isolation. To say they're done in isolation would sort of.... That's one of the reasons we've created my new branch.

When you look at this and at the complexity of the world, I think you've made some good points relative to the corporate structures of the world and free trade agreements. The world is becoming much more complex. By bringing in the resources of a group from Agriculture Canada, who actually are trade analysts who are looking at it—my colleague is the chief ag negotiator as well as assistant deputy minister—together with the CFIA, it allows us to balance some of the issues, or the way you've identified them. I'm quite confident that we're able to do both. We are able to maximize opportunities for our exports, but also to understand the complexity of people wanting to export.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

If we drill down to the specifics on the import controls, I think the CFIA takes a risk-based approach. You inspect a sample of imports rather than all imports. I come from the west coast, where the Port of Vancouver is an extremely busy place. Can you give us a bit more information on how you do that sampling? Are you relying on intelligence networks overseas that make you suspect a certain container? Or is it just randomly done?

[Fred Gorrell]

That's a good question.

As I said, things are becoming more complex. We have intelligence from abroad that we use, intelligence from other countries—for example, with a number of like-minded countries. We work very closely with the United States, with Australia, and with the European Union as well. We can't test everything, because we're the fifth-largest importer in the world as well as an exporter, but at the same time, we target products based on risk. We know from import controls what's coming in, and most cases in advance.

One of the things we've done is that in budget 2016 there was funding given to the CFIA to start looking at and working with industries and establishments in other countries. We are looking at and intercepting and having conversations about food products prior to them coming to Canada, as well as when they come to Canada.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

When it comes to a Canadian port of entry it may already have a CFIA tag on it saying that it has had a pre-inspection or...?

[Fred Gorrell]

It's not necessarily a pre-inspection. The idea would be that we have an opportunity to verify establishments and systems as well as doing technical assistance with them. By doing that, we'll have a level of assurance of the quality of the products coming in, because it's always about compliance. We want products to be in compliance. If we're able to do that with a few countries, that means we have a higher level of comfort and confidence in that product.

We put our resources in the areas of higher risk. We intercept here in Canada based on a lot of intelligence as provided to us by our import permits, as well as work with other countries, and now we are working in other countries prior to product coming here.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

When it comes to perishable goods, do other countries sometimes think it's a non-tariff barrier to trade when you're doing an inspection of a perishable product because maybe you're delaying it by an extra day?

[Fred Gorrell]

That is a good question. That works as well for Canadian products that are going south to the United States, as you know. Perishable products such as fruits and vegetables are always time sensitive. At the end of the day, everybody would try to minimize any damage, but if there are legitimate health and safety concerns, the product needs to be inspected.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Gorrell and Mr. MacGregor.

Mr. Longfield, you have six minutes.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to all of you for being here again.

I want to expand on the discussion around importing and exporting and how your business models and the technology being used are keeping up.

The Prime Minister was in Peru this past weekend. We're looking at expanding trade. We have a free trade agreement there. Since 2008 we've doubled our volume with Peru. I have some figures from 2017 in front of me. Our animal and produce exports were at $11 million, with our imports from Peru at $31 million.

With this doubling in Peru, we're also looking at the Mercosur trade area, at different markets in a different part of the world. How do you keep up with the growth in business that we're seeing from these countries, either through technology or through business practices?

[Fred Gorrell]

One of the areas the food inspection agency is very much focused on is e-certification. We have a platform we've just started this year that is e-certification, so we're looking at both food from animal origins and plant origins. That will be something that will allow us to have inspection certificates well in advance to be able to—as your colleague, Mr. MacGregor, asked about—look at things in advance. Also, we're working with some of the international standard-setting bodies. The IPPC, the International Plant Products Convention, is looking at a platform to facilitate phytosanitary certificates to be shared amongst countries in advance, and also at creating a database.

We are evolving. It is very clear the amount of food product that is being traded internationally from all countries all the time means that we have to use our resources smarter, quicker—all of those types of things that you're aware of. There is very much a change and an opportunity to look at technology and where it can help us. As I said to Mr. MacGregor, also under budget 2016, we were able to get resources at the food inspection agency to actually do inspections and audits of systems and verify plants prior to product coming to Canada. So if there are problems, for example, the problem stays out there. It doesn't come into Canada.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

In that time frame, just as we were elected, I was visiting a semen exporter north of Guelph, Semex—