Agriculture Committee on Jan. 26th, 2021

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Yes, absolutely. If we're going to encourage those entrepreneurs that Mr. Blenkharn was talking about, the new, hopeful start-ups, we want them to have an equal playing field about where their products are going to be listed on store shelves and so on.

[Kathleen Sullivan]

We are definitely working very closely with the Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers, so all of the other grocers who aren't in the big five, if you will, are quite active. In fact, I have a meeting with them tomorrow, so we're working quite closely with them.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

There's labour, of course. I've been on this committee for a few years now, and that is a perennial issue that seems to come up quite frequently. I know the struggles that the industry was having even before COVID hit. When you talk about those labour shortages, are there some regions in Canada where those are more acute than in others? Are some provinces, through their provincial nomination streams, trying to identify that issue in your specific sector?

[Kathleen Sullivan]

The labour shortage is something that we hear about from every single province in the country. It may look different or manifest itself differently in different regions, but it is wholesale pretty much across the board. I think where I'm frustrated is that, like you, I've already acknowledged that we've been talking about this for years.

It's very difficult for industry to read the economic strategy table report, to read the Industry Strategy Council report that came out just before Christmas, and to hear these very enthusiastic cheers for agriculture and food processing and all the potential that it has, and yet when the industry comes forward and says there are some really basic fundamentals they need to get right here, it seems like that all falls on a deaf ear.

Not all the work we do is sexy or is going to include buzzwords. I know that people like to talk about robotics a lot now, but robotics isn't going to address all of industry's production issues, processing capacity issues. Sometimes you just have to roll up your sleeves to deal with the basics and figure out what's going wrong to fix the problem, and I think that's what we have unfortunately failed to do. There is a real, growing frustration on the part of industry.

To the extent that we had problems going into COVID, this sector is going to be incredibly critical for economic recovery. First of all, you need this food supply chain for food sovereignty, but there's also massive potential to leverage what the agri-food sector is doing to actually grow economically, both domestically and also from a trade standpoint. As somebody else pointed out, Canadians will keep eating. If we don't feed them the food we make, someone's going to bring their product in from overseas and people will eat that.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Yes, absolutely. Everybody eats. That's one guarantee your industry has.

I'm getting close to the end of my time, so I'll leave it at that, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Sullivan, for your comments and testimony.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor and Ms. Sullivan.

Now it's Mr. Steinley, for five minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Steinley.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'll ask both witnesses some questions. The first one—and Mr. MacGregor went down this path—is about the impacts of the grocery code of conduct on independent grocery stores. I come from Saskatchewan, where we have a lot of co-ops and independent stores. I know the code of conduct is geared toward the five big grocery conglomerates. What would be the impact on those smaller, local stores?

[Kathleen Sullivan]

I'll start, if I may. If you look at codes of conduct in other countries.... The U.K., for example, has had a grocery code of conduct for a number of years. That code of conduct is exclusively focused on the large retailers.

We don't have to do that in Canada. We can create a solution that works for us. We do have very important independent retailers that are a critical part of the landscape when it comes to our food system.

My view is that any code of conduct we develop needs to include the perspective of the independent grocers. In fact, I am involved in a conversation with the independent grocers now over drafting some principles that would meet the needs of food processing and also ensure that the needs of the independent grocers are reflected as well.

At the end of the day, I think whatever code we have should be strengthening their position and everyone else's as well.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Blenkharn, what a breath of fresh air for this committee. I think you have been down a path where we should have a conversation about some of the irritants and some of the biggest impediments to the growth of our processing and capacity sector. You said that government sometimes needs to just get out of the way—I'm paraphrasing—and allow private investment to come in and do the job.

What would be three of the biggest irritants causing us not to attract that private investment into our agriculture in the processing and capacity sector?

[Ian Blenkharn]

You can take any three of the ones I listed in my presentation earlier. If I wanted to focus, foreign labour is a big problem. The way the temporary foreign labour rules work today is absolutely atrocious. I gave an example earlier about the Nova Scotia plant being shut down due to COVID-19. We have catchers who catch the birds in the barn. It's not a very glamourous job or a really high-paying job, and for the most part, today in Canada, a lot of that is done by foreign workers.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Could I ask a more direct question? We've heard a couple of people talk in this committee about some of the issues around internal trade, non-tariff trade barriers and the fact that meat can be inspected in Nova Scotia and then that meat can't be sold anywhere else. There are issues with reducing red tape and allowing for the market to decide where and when a product should be sold.

Are these some of those issues that you ran into, hampering our ability to allow producers to basically create an atmosphere where they can be successful?

[Ian Blenkharn]

One area where I've seen some great discrepancy is CFIA. They are all supposedly reading the same handbook, but there seem to be various versions of it. What one plant can do...a neighbouring plant may have nowhere near the restrictions. That is extremely problematic, when you're trying to compete and the playing field is not level. That would be one of the examples that I struggled with when I was running processing plants. The rules were not consistent within our own CFIA.

[Warren Steinley, Conservative, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

There's one last thing.

When it comes to taxation, I also know that private investment will go to where it is able to make the biggest impact, and where it is able to be successful. Are some of the new taxes that are brought in—I'm referencing the carbon tax and a few other taxes and fees that we have seen increase and that will continue to increase over the years—part of the reason we may not have some of that foreign investment and private investment that you were talking about?

[Ian Blenkharn]

That is correct. The money will go where it's being attracted, so the money is going to go where the risk...and the stability is there, and where there is little fear of government reprisals or government taxes trying to claw back any profit you are trying to make. Yes, the more restrictions we put in place, the more we restrict our ability to attract capital, which is the reason I talked about investment tax credits. To me, investment tax credits are a fantastic way to reward those who invest and those who are successful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Thank you, Mr. Blenkharn.

We'll go to Mr. Louis for five minutes.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both witnesses for being here. I appreciate that very much.

Ms. Sullivan, something we haven't talked about when we talk about a shortage of skilled trades is students and young people entering the market. The reason I mention it is that I have a post-secondary school, Conestoga College, that has an institute of food-processing technology right here in Waterloo region. It provides education, training, research and technical experience in the food-processing industry.

Have you looked into programs to try to bring in a new workforce? This generation is looking for work, has ideas and is very forward-thinking. Have you looked at ways or are there programs that could help get young people into the workforce and address some of these shortages of skilled labour that we have?

[Kathleen Sullivan]

You are 100% right. I think students are a huge potential workforce for us. A program in Ontario, for example, was developed a few years ago, Taste Your Future, that was social media-based and very much focused on raising awareness of our industry as a potential job or career opportunity and also of the range of jobs we offer.

Yes, we should absolutely be working with the colleges and universities and looking at apprentice programs, internships and co-op programs because that has a huge potential. What companies say is that when they do have a co-op student, it's really important for them to continue that relationship, because that individual, at the individual level, becomes a potential lifetime worker for them and contributor to the company. From a domestic standpoint, youth are important, 100%.

I think we also have to think through the potential to look at under-represented groups, groups that may be challenged to get into the work force and how we can help them overcome those challenges. That's really hard to do at a company level. That is absolutely where we really need governments to help us. This can be about new Canadians or refugees and having to work through resettlement services or working with first nations communities to understand the transportation requirements and the ability to get people to the plant. I think there is a potential workforce there as well, but I think it is probably unrealistic to think that individual companies are going to be able to figure out how to overcome those barriers.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you very much.

You mentioned co-op, which I did not mention, which is great. New Canadians and first nations are also great. You're saying that it could help to have governments, whether provincial or federal, share best practices. If there are any other best practices you could share for the record here, it would help us possibly put some sort of program together. If you know of any others now, I would love to hear about them.

[Kathleen Sullivan]

Sure. Having the local colleges focus on programs that are geared toward food processing, like Conestoga College, absolutely.... I think, as well, this is often at the provincial level, but there's a leadership role for the federal government in taking a look at how we certify skilled trades. Are there possibilities for more flexible approaches to certification? Micro-certification, for example, to certify a skilled tradesperson for a micro skill set is important for our particular sector, rather than taking five or six years for full certification before people can do a job. That's really critical.

In fact, we put in an application for funding to look at that project last fall. Unfortunately, it wasn't accepted, but I think, 100%, the federal government needs to take a leadership role in seeing what skilled trades look like across the country, because we have a massive shortage, not just in this industry, but also in manufacturing. I think manufacturing sometimes gets overlooked as being old-fashioned. It's not. It's a massive employer in this country. We are the largest manufacturing sector, so we are the largest among manufacturers, and this is a sector that needs attention.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

To add to that, the work stays here. The work stays in our communities, 100%.

With the rest of my time, I want to acknowledge the sacrifices that the front-line food processors have made; they need to be recognized.

Another thing we haven't talked about is the potential to learn how we protect our workers through this pandemic and what kinds of measures might stay as we extend past this pandemic to help further productivity. There are lessons to be learned in how we can help protect our workers.

[Kathleen Sullivan]

There are, 100%. Bear in mind that when the pandemic first—

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

I'm sorry, Ms. Sullivan, but I have to cut you off here.

Thanks, Ms. Sullivan. Thanks, Mr. Louis.

We're a little bit over time, but we'll go with Monsieur Perron, very tight.

Mr. Perron, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm very pleased to have speaking time. I didn't think that I had any.

Mr. Blenkharn, you started your presentation by saying that supply management was a good system that should be maintained. You then said that producers were only one component and that the system needed to be modernized.

What do you think should be changed?

[Ian Blenkharn]

I don't seem to have the translation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Pat Finnigan]

Are there issues with the interpretation?