Evidence of meeting #26 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-206.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan
Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.
Thank you, Ms. Ross.
Now we'll go to Mr. Steinley for the second round of five minutes.
Go ahead, Mr. Steinley.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
Thank you very much.
Bob and Fawn, would your membership prefer a rebate or an exemption?
5:20 p.m.
Director, Policy and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association
An exemption.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
5:20 p.m.
Director, Policy and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association
You know, I think that in the conversation, everybody is agreeing that we need to do something, right? I think it's about what is the right tool to do that. I think the problem with taxing them and then giving these exact same dollars back is a problem in the sense of, “Let's not back them into a corner without an extra tool”.
Frankly, I think that maybe that time frame discussion is a good one to have while that transition is happening, but this just pays accountants and the middle folks. We need to keep dollars in producers' pockets.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
I could not agree with you more.
Of your membership, how much money do you think they'll save in their pockets? Have you guys done a study for this exemption in this bill that was put forward by Mr. Lawrence?
5:20 p.m.
Director, Policy and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association
We've looked at a few specific farms, looking at those corn flakers that increase the digestibility of, and thereby reduces the environmental footprint of, those products. It's not like grain drying, where every single operation has them. To try and multiply it out.... It's a specific impact. That's a $63,000 bill for a specific farm.
Looking at another farm that has a calving shed and a shed that holds a couple of tractors, that's a $6,300 impact.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
It's huge difference.
I went home last week and helped my cousins vaccinate heifers and we put them out to pasture. Since the mid-eighties until late nineties, we've been doing rotational grazing in southwest Saskatchewan because it's the smart thing to do and we're good environmental stewards of our land. We've been doing crop rotations in southwest Saskatchewan and across Saskatchewan and western Canada since the mid-nineties as well because it does well for a soil conservation and it helps us retain nitrogen in the soil when we put different crops on it at different times. These aren't new practices. We're doing them now and I'm very proud of the innovation that our farmers have done. I think they know more about the land than we do. I hear that all the time when I go back home and visit my cousins.
Ms. Ross, I appreciate your testimony very much. You spoke about having lower GHG emissions in food production. I don't know the answer to this; I'm hoping you might. What countries have lower GHG food production than Canada? I think our producers and our people are doing a very good job. I'd be willing to know if you have numbers that show there are countries that are more environmentally friendly than we are.
5:20 p.m.
Director, Farmers for Climate Solutions
Thanks for your question.
The emissions in our sector are rising to 2030, and that's the problem. There's a second problem. If we look around the world compared with some of our most significant competitors, like countries in Europe and the U.S., we're noticing that their public investments in farmers and agri-environmental programs—programs that help farmers adopt practices to reduce our environmental footprint including GHGs—are much more significant. Those are two problems at hand here.
For agriculture to contribute to Canada's climate solution, which I think we all want it to and I think every farmer does, we need to reduce our emissions.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
Do you know if there is a country that produces at the level we do, in terms of beef and pork commodities, but has a better environmental record than ours? Per tonne in Canada, be it beef or pork, I think our emissions are comparable or lower than most other countries' right now. I agree, and everyone on this call agrees, that we can continue to do better, but at this point in time is there a country that does agriculture better environmentally than us, in your opinion?
5:25 p.m.
Director, Farmers for Climate Solutions
I think we're comparing apples to oranges. If we think about GHG efficiency per pound—let's just use that metric—we're doing very well.
Again, what we need to remember is that climate change is going to continue and increase impacts on our farms if we don't reduce absolute emissions. That is the problem we need to consider. The competition—
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
Warren Steinley Conservative Regina—Lewvan, SK
I just wanted to know that you think we're doing it very well. We completely agree. There's always more work to be done.
For the gentlemen from Équiterre, what's the largest farm that you guys got information from in Saskatchewan, Alberta or Manitoba, based on your numbers you shared about the rebates being comparable to the price they're paying on grain drying or irrigation pumps?
5:25 p.m.
Director, Government Relations, Équiterre
Thank you for your question, Mr. Steinley.
This information was provided by the respective provincial governments, and sent to the federal government. It is therefore public data.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Pat Finnigan
Merci, Mr. Viau, and thank you, Mr. Steinley.
Now we'll go to Mr. Drouin, for five minutes.
Go ahead Mr. Drouin.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I really appreciate the questions that my colleagues Mr. Lawrence and Mr. Steinley are asking on whether or not Canadians or farmers prefer a rebate versus an exemption. I can assure them that if we ask Canadians whether they prefer paying taxes or not, they'd say they don't. It's a matter of fact, but unfortunately, we do have to pay some taxes in this country and probably any country around the world, but that's not to the point here.
I just want to start off by saying we're not trying to penalize farmers; we're trying to change the suppliers. The suppliers are the issue, not the farmers.
Fawn.... I'm calling you Fawn because I think the last time I saw you was actually on a farm where you guys were showing me rotational grazing and how that was working really well in Vankleek Hill in my riding.
The study that you looked at with the $25 per head impact per animal, did that take into account—obviously, if variables don't change—our continued use of the same supply of natural gas or propane and whatnot?
5:25 p.m.
Director, Policy and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association
That study looked at whether the beef industry has or doesn't have a fuel exemption. It didn't even include the propane and natural gas that was the original fuel exemption. We found that whether we're exempt or not, the carbon price has a very significant impact on the competitiveness of the industry.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
The last time I saw you, the U.S. elections hadn't happened, and my question is one that I've asked previous witnesses. I'm wondering if your organization has spoken with the U.S. now that they've announced that they'll again be a signatory to the Paris Agreement.
I'm asking that because I know, especially on the cattlemen's side, that trades happen. Cattle go down south and come back. We're really integrated.
Are you aware of any climate policy they're proposing that would hit sectors of theirs that are similar to ours?
5:25 p.m.
Director, Policy and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association
We've absolutely been in discussions with partners at the American Farm Bureau and the U.S. Cattlemen's Association, and a number of other organizations down there, talking about how we tackle climate change together. We certainly recognize the importance of policy alignment, particularly within the North American sphere. So we have been sharing our experiences in Canada with our American partners, and also with our partners around the globe.
It's really important. Over the last couple of years, when we look at how Alberta is doing, for example, in comparison to Texas, we've seen that we've become less competitive. I'm not going to attribute that all to climate pricing.
It's not that we're against it. It's just about how we compete in this global environment and make sure that we don't just push production to other jurisdictions. I know it's nobody's intention, but that's why we have these conversations about how to do this the right way.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Is the U.S. saying how they're going to reduce their emissions within the cattle industry? I would be looking at some of the northern states, which would have more comparable weather to ours.
5:30 p.m.
Director, Policy and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association
I think one of the tools everybody's discussing is ecosystem service payment programs. Karen talked a little about that. I think that offers a lot of exciting opportunities. You can then reward carbon sequestration, and also biodiversity and a whole bunch of stacking impacts. I've heard a lot of discussion on that in the U.S. I think that's a really appropriate tool for agriculture.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
That's great.
Are you keeping statistics on how many of your farmers are doing rotational grazing? I know Mr. Steinley said that that practice is widely adapted in southern Saskatchewan. I haven't visited every farm here. Maybe one day I will. I know it's a practice that's very widely adopted here, but I don't have statistics.
5:30 p.m.
Director, Policy and International Relations, Canadian Cattlemen's Association
You're right, it is a well-adopted tool. I think more research is going into how we can further increase carbon sequestration with tools such as grazing animals. Admittedly, I think there's quite a bit more research to be done there. I think the research has shown us there is quite a bit more potential there.
Bob talked about our having a greenhouse gas footprint that is 50% of the world average, but that doesn't even take into consideration the carbon sequestration that happens in the beef industry.
