Evidence of meeting #7 for Bill C-11 (41st Parliament, 1st Session) in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was copyright.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alain Lauzon  General Manager, Society for Reproduction Rights of Authors, Composers and Publishers in Canada
Martin Lavallée  Director, Licensing and Legal Affairs, Society for Reproduction Rights of Authors, Composers and Publishers in Canada
Elliot Noss  President and Chief Executive Officer, Tucows Inc.
Jean Brazeau  Senior Vice-President, Regulatory Affairs, Shaw Communications Inc.
Jay Kerr-Wilson  Legal Counsel, Fasken Martineau, Shaw Communications Inc.
Cynthia Rathwell  Vice-President, Regulatory Affairs, Shaw Communications Inc.
Stephen Stohn  President, Executive Producer, Degrassi: The Next Generation, Epitome Pictures Inc.
Gerry Barr  National Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Directors Guild of Canada
Tim Southam  Chair, National Directors Division, Directors Guild of Canada
Greg Hollingshead  Chair, Writers' Union of Canada
Marian Hebb  Legal Counsel, Writers' Union of Canada

5:35 p.m.

Chair, National Directors Division, Directors Guild of Canada

Tim Southam

I agree. It's interesting to be talking so much about the Internet when in fact we don't yet have a fungible business model across the entire spectrum of that platform. People are anticipating it, but there is no question that there is content circulating on it.

I think the answer is a little more complex. Given that there is content circulating on this platform, how is it going to become fungible? How do we control the use or the consumption of that content on a medium that's become expert at evading traditional controls?

The real answer is that content creators don't exist without remuneration, and the remuneration is broken down into two components: their labour, for which they're paid on the spot, and their authorship, which constitutes an ongoing economic relationship with that work long after it's disseminated into the marketplace.

What we're seeing with the Internet and with new media generally is a radical foreshortening of that ongoing economic relationship with the work once it's disseminated. That has huge implications for creators sitting at home trying to get their next work made and for creators going out into the labour force looking for a proper fee for their work. Producers who can't recover that money in the marketplace will turn around and offer less for the labour and for the authorship. The Directors Guild thinks the dollar number attached to the authorship should continue to be a reality in legal terms and in economic terms as we go forward into this new Wild West we're dealing with.

5:35 p.m.

NDP

Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Mr. Stohn, you mentioned in your presentation that the cyberlockers and torrent sites needed to be more controlled, because those sites are potential dollars lost.

Would you care to expand on that a bit?

5:35 p.m.

President, Executive Producer, Degrassi: The Next Generation, Epitome Pictures Inc.

Stephen Stohn

I won't expand on the technical aspects; I'll leave that to our association. Mr. Noss made it clear that he wasn't disagreeing that we want to get rid of the big guys, the bad guys, the cyberlockers, but he wanted to make sure that the enabling legislation doesn't hurt the small people.

We're not interested in hurting the small people. My understanding is that the legislation really doesn't quite cover the big guys, and that in trying to achieve a balance to help the little guys, we may have accidentally provided a safe harbour for the cyberlockers.

5:35 p.m.

NDP

Tyrone Benskin NDP Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Mr. Hollingshead, could you tell us a bit more about teachers who already have a regime in which they have access to copyright material through licensing, and how the fair dealing process will actually take money out of the pockets of artists?

5:35 p.m.

Chair, Writers' Union of Canada

Greg Hollingshead

The system in place now, collective licensing, really covers what they're doing in the classroom. When educators want to be excused from copying a few pages here and there in the class, called fair dealing, the value of the licence goes down. They're already paying for that and they don't want to pay for it anymore. The result is that the artists have diminished income from copyright.

5:35 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Glenn Thibeault

Thank you, Mr. Hollingshead and Mr. Benskin.

Now, for another five minutes of questions, we'll go to Mr. Armstrong.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank you for your presentations today.

Mr. Barr, I'm going to start with you. I'm interested in some of the concerns you had over clarity. You were talking about clarity in the legislation in relation to the writer, the director, and the producer.

Can you explain to me how authorship is defined under the current legislation, and how it works in the industry?

5:40 p.m.

National Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Directors Guild of Canada

Gerry Barr

I'll do both things. I think you're asking how authorship is defined in legislation.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

Right.

5:40 p.m.

National Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Directors Guild of Canada

Gerry Barr

What brings us here and drives the presentation we're giving today is that when it comes to audiovisual works, there is a gap in Bill C-11 that's easily corrected—a very narrow set of words that doesn't encroach on any of the other issues that dog this package of amendments, so I think you're in and out very quickly and simply.

However, I think it's very important to notice that the industry has taken account of the kind of clarity around authorship that we're seeking. In our standard agreement with Canada's independent producers there's a plain acknowledgement of the authorial rights of directors. Those rights and the ability of producers to repeat broadcasts is sold as a part of the compensation for directors. Screenwriters also have a similar contract arrangement with producers. The industry currently takes account of these rights.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

You're saying that there's nothing in the current legislation that defines this; it's taken care of within the industry itself. Then why is there such a need to put it into the legislation if it has already been worked out within the industry?

5:40 p.m.

National Executive Director and Chief Executive Officer, Directors Guild of Canada

Gerry Barr

There are two reasons. One is that when you negotiate it, it is taken account of by the industry, but that doesn't cover the whole terrain; as a result, you will end up with examples of the kind I cited of Films Rachel, which was a dispute between a producer and an author. This was an unsigned film. It wasn't something that was taken account of by any collective agreement or contract arrangements.

Second, clarity in the law lies at the heart of a sustainable revenue stream when it comes to creators. This is a terrific opportunity to ensure that there is clarity. It doesn't add complications, but it helps enormously going forward.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

I have a question for Steve.

I'm sure that, given your background, you probably knew Neil Hope quite well.

5:40 p.m.

President, Executive Producer, Degrassi: The Next Generation, Epitome Pictures Inc.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

I'd like to give my condolences. I know it was a long time ago, but your whole Degrassi family must have been quite upset last year.

5:40 p.m.

President, Executive Producer, Degrassi: The Next Generation, Epitome Pictures Inc.

Stephen Stohn

When I was trying to tell my wife—and I'm tearing up even now—I was so choked up I couldn't even get the words out.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

I offer my condolences on that.

That show was truly groundbreaking and has had tremendous international success, both the original series and the other series. Am I right in saying that?

5:40 p.m.

President, Executive Producer, Degrassi: The Next Generation, Epitome Pictures Inc.

Stephen Stohn

Yes. Between the two of them, they're in well over 100 countries around the world.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

When you do that, you must have to deal with copyright legislation internationally.

5:40 p.m.

President, Executive Producer, Degrassi: The Next Generation, Epitome Pictures Inc.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

With regard to the new legislation coming through in Bill C-11, have you faced problems and hurdles in having a show that's broadcast in so many different countries? I don't mean technical details; that's not your area.

5:40 p.m.

President, Executive Producer, Degrassi: The Next Generation, Epitome Pictures Inc.

Stephen Stohn

Copyright is territorial, so when we're dealing in the United States, we're dealing with the U.S. copyright act, and when we're dealing in France, we're dealing with the French copyright act. It really hasn't been that much of an issue. There are relatively standard terms and conditions that apply.

The only thing that happens—and it's anecdotal—is the perception internationally that Canada is a bit of a haven for piracy. That's upsetting to all of us who are Canadians and think of ourselves as being exactly the opposite of that.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

One of the reasons you've encouraged us to pass the legislation as soon as possible is so that we can take some steps to limit this ability to pirate international materials as well as domestic materials. Is that accurate?

5:40 p.m.

President, Executive Producer, Degrassi: The Next Generation, Epitome Pictures Inc.

Stephen Stohn

It really will bring Canada into line with the rest of the world.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS

I have a couple of more questions.

When your original series of Degrassi broke in the United States, it was copied almost immediately. It was set in Beverly Hills as Beverly Hills 90210. It really was a copy of the whole theme of your show, but placed among Corvettes and mansions. Did you have a problem with that?