Bill C-20 (39th Parliament, 2nd Session) Committee on April 9th, 2008

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I have a second question relating to financing. I am going to look at the flip side of the issue: we know, as elected members of Parliament, how difficult it is to raise enough money to pay for election expenses in a single riding. What Bill C-20 proposes is that people who want to put their name on a list of potential nominees travel all across their own province as part of their campaign. I suppose you could say that the Atlantic provinces cover a small area, so that it probably would cost less to travel across the region to meet with all the voters, but the fact is that when you're in Newfoundland or Labrador, it is very difficult to get around without having an airplane at your disposal. It costs a lot of money. And the same applies to the large provinces— Northern Quebec, Northern Ontario, not to mention Iqaluit and other regions of the country.

So my question is this: realistically, how would it be possible to control the amount of money a candidate could spend, given the fact that there is no spending limit provided for in the bill?

[Marc Mayrand]

You are correct when you say that there is no spending limit. I think one of the problems candidates may face is more likely to be with respect to funding their expenses. Because they are not allowed to receive funds if they are affiliated with a party—if they are independent, they are entitled to more, but if they are affiliated with a party, they cannot receive funds directly from the party—they have no choice but to engage in fund raising, in order to cover their consultation expenses.

There are some provisions in the bill that take that problem into account. That is why, in my presentation, I tried to bring out the fact that it is difficult to draw a line the sand exactly in the right place, and that this must be carefully considered.

One of the bill's provisions allows nominees to begin collecting contributions on the last day of the consultation. So, the day after the consultation, a nominee can begin collecting contributions, which distinguishes him quite clearly from someone running in an election, who is unable to do that. He can also issue income tax receipts from that day onward. So, there is a certain amount of flexibility given in terms of financing and fundraising. Is it enough? Time alone will tell. It is very difficult to anticipate the cost of a Senate campaign.

The other dimension that I wanted to raise with you is that parties can provide goods and services. They cannot provide funding. That suggests that a party could provide staff, equipment, transportation and other services or goods of that nature in order to assist the nominee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Albina Guarnieri]

Thank you.

Mr. Preston.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Good afternoon. It's good to have you here.

You mentioned in your presentation that in some cases, when a consultation is being held in conjunction with a province, there would be some negotiation needed with the election department of each of the provinces. You already do that in a lot of cases. You have cooperation now with the provincial election branches in each of the provinces.

[Marc Mayrand]

We do, and we're always looking for further collaboration.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

I understand you're already sharing information with them, on voters' lists and other things. Granted, there are some legislative differences between how elections may be held, but you're already negotiating with them.

In your speech to us today, you implied that there may be some difficulties in those negotiations. Since you're already working with them on a number of other areas, what are you anticipating?

[Marc Mayrand]

I spoke briefly with some of my colleagues. Generally, their sense is that they would need legislative authority from the province.

The second thing that would be challenging is that we have different rules for voting at the federal and provincial levels. Residential rules vary. Inmates can vote in certain provincial elections but cannot vote in federal ones. These rules would need to be harmonized. On election day you can't apply two sets of rules to the same electorate depending on what they wish to cast a ballot for. That would require us to agree.

Again, based on early discussions, I suspect that some of the adaptation required would be very substantive. It's not about sharing personnel and locales or things like that. It's rules about voting; it's rules about residency; it's rules about polling-day registration, which do not exist in at least one province.

How do you operate in that environment, sharing the same personnel who are administering very different rules in some cases? Some of those rules are substantive. Again, STV does not exist in the provinces right now.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Then I commend you for already, at least as a preliminary, looking at what the differences may be. Let's try to make sure we move ahead. That's certainly going to save you a lot of time after the fact.

You do recommend that the consultation be held during a federal election. It would certainly be a lot easier, because it's a broad-based situation that you already control, and voting stations and that type of thing certainly could be shared for all of the above.

[Marc Mayrand]

Yes.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

In answer to questions from Mr. Reid, you mentioned some of the opportunities to start looking around the world. You would look at this method of voting that's already in place in a lot of places, whether it's how to count ballots or what size ballots may be. Have you started your preliminary research on countries already using some similar system of voting, at least?

[Marc Mayrand]

Yes. We sent observers to Australia, which had an election last fall and is using that system for their Senate. We also had two observation missions to Scotland, which was just introducing the system. We're definitely looking at how other electoral bodies around the world are administering this regime.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

In either of those, did you find any insurmountable issues?

[Marc Mayrand]

No, it's doable. My only concern is that I don't think it's doable in two years. But it's doable. It exists, and apparently it works satisfactorily for many countries.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Let's use the outlook of the possible rather than the impossible, of course. If someone else is already doing it, that may save us a great deal of time in finding the method and the how-tos, if you will.

That's all I have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Albina Guarnieri]

Ms. Picard, you have the floor.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Mayrand.

If I understand correctly, some Senate seats could remain vacant for almost four years, unless the government establishes a bank of nominees in order to fill those positions. Would that be possible, in your opinion?

[Marc Mayrand]

Yes, and that period could be longer under other pieces of legislation. Another bill could set a term of eight years. As I understand it, Senate appointment consultations could only occur during a general, provincial or federal election. As I already stated, there could be certain issues there at the provincial level.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

For example, there could not be by-elections.

[Marc Mayrand]

Exactly, it could not occur during by-elections.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

According to the bill, a party would have to register as a third party if it wants to promote a nominee by means of advertising, and its expenses would be subject to the same limits as those that apply to third parties in elections for the House of Commons. A little earlier, you talked about expenses, but you did not mention that particular aspect.

[Marc Mayrand]

It would be possible for a party to register as a third party, within the meaning of the Canada Elections Act and the Senate appointments legislation, for the purposes of funding or carrying out advertising related to a consultation campaign.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

And they would be subject to the same limits as someone running for office in the House of Commons.

[Marc Mayrand]

They would be subject to the same limits as a third party wishing to do advertising during an election campaign. It's based on the province, and the limit is adjusted for the province as a whole. It's based on the voters, the area and the number of places involved. There is only one area, and therefore, there is only one nominee. The limit is set using the formula laid out in the Canada Elections Act.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

You mentioned a little earlier that implementing a system such as this could take from two to three years.

[Marc Mayrand]

At least three years.