Evidence of meeting #7 for Bill C-30 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was targets.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Jaccard  School of Resource and Environmental Management, Simon Fraser University
Nancy Hughes Anthony  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
David Martin  Greenpeace Canada
Alexander Wood  President and Chief Executive Officer, National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy
Michael Murphy  Executive Vice-President, Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce

6:55 p.m.

Greenpeace Canada

David Martin

That I couldn't tell you. I know they're radically increasing their renewable energy production as well.

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

In fact, in some places in China people are born and die without ever seeing the sky because it's so polluted.

6:55 p.m.

Greenpeace Canada

David Martin

One of the biggest successes we're seeing now with the Kyoto Protocol is the clean development mechanism. The uptake in China for the use of that so-called flexibility mechanism under the Kyoto Protocol has been massive.

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I understand, but on one side they're going to build coal-fired plants at a rate of one per week and do other polluting things, and we're going to send money over for them to build more efficient plants. It seems a little bit strange that we would invest money in technology there when we could invest money here to get our job right first, because we don't have our backyard cleaned up. And then we could send the technology.

6:55 p.m.

Greenpeace Canada

David Martin

I don't have any argument. The environmental community has argued as strongly as anyone that we should be acting domestically first as a top priority, before we look offshore.

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Has your group costed out the amount of money it would take to meet the Kyoto Protocol by 2008 to 2012? Have you had it professionally costed?

6:55 p.m.

Greenpeace Canada

David Martin

No, we're not sure of the amount of money it's going to take. We are sure that the cost, however, will be much greater if we don't invest that money.

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Long-term, absolutely.

Your group is suggesting to cut out 800 megatonnes per year, starting in 2007.

6:55 p.m.

Greenpeace Canada

David Martin

We're at roughly 800 megatonnes. The figure was 758 megatonnes for 2004.

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

You're aware that the oil sands account currently for about 6% of the gross domestic product of the country.

6:55 p.m.

Greenpeace Canada

David Martin

I'm not sure of that figure, no, but I'll take your word for it.

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

They currently account for somewhere between 20 and 30 megatonnes. By my math, that's a pretty big chunk of the gross domestic product if we meet 800 megatonnes in this year alone.

Are we going to do that by nuclear? What are you suggesting we do it by? Solar cells? What kind of technology?

6:55 p.m.

Greenpeace Canada

David Martin

First of all, we need to level the playing field. The oil sands have received undue support from the government, and I don't think the oil sector needs any more subsidies. I don't they need a 100% write-off for their capital costs in the oil sands—

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

It's an accelerated capital cost write-off. It just accelerates what they can do long-term. It actually makes it occur more quickly. In essence, it's not a subsidy. It's just an accelerated depreciation that they can show on their books so that they can depreciate the property faster.

6:55 p.m.

Greenpeace Canada

David Martin

I understand, but the physical reality of the technology is that it produces five times as many greenhouse gases as conventional oil. We shouldn't be incenting that kind of activity that has such an adverse environmental impact.

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Okay, my last question, then. Your group and you have several quotes, which I have here, suggesting that nuclear should be shut down as well. Is that correct?

7 p.m.

Greenpeace Canada

David Martin

Well, not shut down. We don't expect those plants would be shut down tomorrow, but we think they should be phased out as they reach the end of their lifetime, rather than reinvesting. We certainly think we should not be investing in new nuclear plants.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

In fact, if your quote is correct—and I would suggest it is, based on this—“Nuclear power has been a tragic tale of false promises, inflated expectations, titanic costs, frightening accidents, and environmental nightmares”. Isn't that your quote?

7 p.m.

Greenpeace Canada

David Martin

That is a quote, and an accurate one.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

And 50% of the energy consumed in Ontario right now is nuclear. Is that correct?

7 p.m.

Greenpeace Canada

David Martin

No, about 40% to 50% of the electricity consumed is nuclear.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Electricity, yes, sorry.

7 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Laurie Hawn

That's it.

7 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Thank you very much.

7 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Laurie Hawn

Mr. Lussier, you have five minutes.