Bill C-32 (40th Parliament, 3rd Session) Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

So you pay taxes on copyright income, even on that $400 you get right before Christmas.

[Christian Bédard]

Yes.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

How much of the total paid out by Copibec goes to visual artists?

[Christian Bédard]

For each artist, I believe the maximum is $650. Approximately 3% to 4% of the total amount collected by Copibec is paid out to visual artists. It should be more, but we are in talks with Copibec, as we speak. They are pretty small amounts as compared with the big numbers, but they are significant to individual artists, nonetheless.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you.

Mr. Angus, for seven minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you. This is a fascinating discussion. I would say that we've had two excellent weeks in the world of art. We saved those Riopelles in Montreal. That would have been a disaster for our country, so thank God for the Montreal fire department.

Second, in contradiction to Monsieur Bédard, I think the Google Art Project is one of the most exciting initiatives I've ever heard of, up there with Google Books, which has taken books that were out of print and has given us access. People from around the world are going to be looking at these digital museums and wanting to go there and find out more. So I think the potential is enormous, and we should be encouraging the ability of people in every small community in this country and around the world to see art, because they're going to want to go see it in person.

The question we're talking about here, it seems to me, is very much a technical dispute between dealers and the artists, and we're being asked to sort of come to some understanding of what is fair ground. The issue of fair ground is important.

What are the commissions that are generally put on the sale of an artist's work?

[Patricia Feheley]

As I said in my paper, on a secondary market sale, the commissions would range up to and no more than 20%, sometimes less than 10%, simply because those are the auction commissions. So it's not the 50% that has been bandied about.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But on original work—

[Patricia Feheley]

That's on secondary market sales, because effectively the art dealers are acting as brokers between a buyer and a seller.

You just finished saying this is between artists and art dealers, and I do take exception to that. What we are saying is, effectively, art dealers and auction houses...this will be passed on, so I think we need to put that on the table.

Our concern is the well-being of the art market in general. It's not an antagonism between the two.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

So what would you say would be the commissions that are being asked of your artists? Is it 50%?

[Miriam Shiell]

That's in the primary market. We have to make a distinction here between the primary and the secondary market because the ARR is only specific to the secondary market.

There is one fundamental difference, again, with respect to Madame Lavallée's....

When you sell an artwork, title has passed. I find that somewhat different from downloading and all the complications of downloading. The title has passed. That's a legal thing. That artist has sold that work.

There are also some real misunderstandings about whether or not the artists participate in their secondary market. We hear about these auction prices, and it's very interesting that the auctions are not in fact represented at this table. I think that's quite a questionable thing. But every time a shrewd dealer will use and manipulate those prices to revalue those inventories, which in fact will include the artist's work, because the auction prices are effectively the Dow Jones of the marketplace.... So the artists are participating over the lifetime of their career in the increased prices. It's impossible to use these kinds of arguments that a work sold for $250 in 1955, with apologies to Tony--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Sorry. I'm going to have to move on because we only have seven minutes. I'm not trying to be rude here. I'm just trying to get as many questions in as possible.

Mr. Urquhart, you have a long experience in this. You've said 50%. Now, is it common that the artist is often asked to absorb costs such as insurance, shipping, framing, some advertising costs? Is that common?

[Anthony Urquhart, Member, Canadian Artists' Representation]

Yes. I usually figure if you make, say, $20,000, if you sell that, then you might end up with $8,500 or so because the commission is 50%. But then you split the costs of advertising and opening, that sort of thing.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Madam Myre, are you a working artist?

[Nadia Myre]

Yes, I am.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Do you feel there needs to be better contractual relations between the individual artist and the dealer to protect the artist's rights and that these would then actually be put into clear contracts?

I know in the case of Rebecca Belmore, she's being sued by her dealer. It raises questions. Are we looking at the need to re-establish terms and which artists have some contractual rights?

[Nadia Myre]

I totally think that artists and dealers should have mandatory contracts. Right now, often they're by word of mouth or through e-mail, and they're not written at all. The practice isn't there.

As a working artist, I do disagree with Miriam Shiell. I think any amount of money that an artist can receive is worth it, even if it's $250. In my own career I've seen the value of my work go up, through a very important piece I've made, by $5,000. That's through my hard work and diligence. I think I should receive 5% of that. That's not an unfair demand. Even 5% isn't a full 5% if you take into account that you have copyright collectives administrating those fees and managing that money, as we're proposing. So I think that's a very small and reasonable thing to ask for.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Monsieur Bédard, with your organization I understand there are some resale rights being written into certain contracts now, like in Nunavut. Is it the ability of a collective to write in a resale right, or does it have to be legislated by law because it's a sale of property?

[Christian Bédard]

It would need to be included in the law.

Certain artists will include it in their contracts. It is up to the seller or the reseller or the owner of the artwork to respect it or not. But definitely it cannot be left unlegislated. It has to be included in an act. I think the Copyright Act is the right place to do it, and now would be the best time for Canada to reach the international standards that are being established now, because 59 countries have it already.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Is there dealer support for standardized contracts so that there's a...?

[Miriam Shiell]

We have no problem with that, and we believe it actually exists in practice. Reputable dealers have “understandings contracts” with their artists. By tradition, a handshake is also a contract and is legally binding. But in the clarification of the minutiae of a dealer, there is no issue with contracts. If it was standardized, the Art Dealers Association would be happy to do that for our members. We represent 90 galleries across the country. Our 3,500 artists are the working artists that are effectively selling in the marketplace.

There are a few things that keep getting thrown around here. Of the 59 countries, a vast number are the EU countries that are compelled by other forces to become part of this and cannot act independently, so to speak.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you. We're going to have to end there.

[Miriam Shiell]

Britain came in because of that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you.

We're going to move to Mr. Braid.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to our witnesses for being here.

Ms. Feheley, in your presentation you described the art market as fragile. Could you explain why that is? Secondly, what could we do to make it stronger?