Bill C-32 (40th Parliament, 3rd Session) Committee on March 1st, 2011

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I was just clarifying, because this is my concern...and I know the situation is dire. But I remember touring in the early 1990s alongside a band that had the biggest hit in the country for about three years, and they were making $300 a week. So it's always been dire, and I appreciate that.

[Maïa Davies]

It has always been a difficult industry, but....

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Right now, under this bill, there are two elements that would take money that would normally go to artists—the mechanical royalties that are going to be stripped, and whether or not we amend the levy.

Now, Ms. McKennitt says it's pocket change to her, but I talked to the Copyright Board and it's $35 million a year to recording artists and touring artists.

[Maïa Davies]

I heard about this last week. I have no revenue from it.

I'm not saying it's not an issue, but I'm asking, why we are delaying on so many things that we're obviously not completely in agreement on?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

So you don't care if the levy exists or not.

[Maïa Davies]

I didn't say I don't care.

[Grant Dexter]

I think that's the point, Charlie, that you're talking to an independent--

[Maïa Davies]

I'm just saying that I would like to see something happen sooner rather than later, because I think we're already 10 years too late.

[Grant Dexter]

You're talking to an independent artist here who has no clue about the broadcast.... There are so many other troubles. You have an industry that has gone from $1.2 billion down to $420 million, and you're talking about an $8-million broadcast mechanical and you're talking about a $41-million iPod device tax. The house is on fire and you're talking...she doesn't even know about it. Of course she doesn't, because she's trying to sell CDs, and make a living live, and--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

So your members don't rely on any of that? They don't care about the broadcast mechanical?

[Grant Dexter]

You know what? No one wants to take money off the table, but the thing we have to focus on is the bill.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. No, that's fair. I mean, I'm not here to argue.

[Grant Dexter]

No one wants to lose any money--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I think the house burnt down ages ago. I think we have to build a new house. That's my feeling. I don't think the house that--

[Grant Dexter]

Well, you have that luxury because you're not making a living from the business, so....

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I don't know if I have that luxury. It's my job to do due diligence, and that's what I will do.

Mr. Henderson, we've spoken before at committee. You had a couple of specifics that I was more interested in. You talked last time about carrot-and-stick and ubiquitous measures, but I didn't hear the specifics. I'm interested in two of the specifics that you spoke about.

One is in terms of the ISP to deal with repeat offenders. I'm hearing from your organizations about notice and takedown, but the Conservatives clearly aren't moving there because they don't think it will pass a Canadian court challenge.

What would you suggest in terms of dealing with the ISPs to make sure that we have some kind of...?

[Graham Henderson]

Well, as I said, I think that at a very base minimum there has to be a policy to deal with repeat infringers.

I mean, if we can identify people who are again and again going back to the well--this happens—and downloading Loreena's entire catalogue, and taking Maïa's record before it has even hit the streets, over and over....

At the very least, they should be doing something like that.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Is there something more specific? We haven't had the ISPs here, so we haven't heard them telling us that they're going to be good cops on this. We haven't heard what they're going to offer. Is there something specific in the bill, or are you just saying that we have to push them harder?

[Graham Henderson]

Well, there's nothing in the bill. I think what we're saying is that there needs to be.... If you look at legislation around the world, there is something in all of the legislation that deals with this issue. Nobody should be getting a free pass.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

What is the status of the lawsuit with isoHunt that you guys launched in May 2010 under present copyright law? Is that going forward?

[Graham Henderson]

The history of isoHunt is that they've been in Canada for a long time. They've been sued in the United States; they're subject to a gigantic court judgment. They're trying to build themselves a lifeboat, I think, up in Canada so that they can sort of escape the long arm of the law. This is something that is giving our country a really bad reputation: that they're here and are starting to do that.

They went to court—I find this absolutely appalling—about a year and a half ago seeking an opinion from a British Columbia judge that what they did in Canada was legal. My view is that we simply cannot stand idly by and allow that to happen.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

So you guys are suing them, right?

[Graham Henderson]

When somebody comes into your house, you're going to fight back with absolutely...and remember, Charlie, they're burning our house down. So we're fighting back with absolutely every weapon at our disposal.

And yes, did we counter-sue them? Sure we counter-sued them. That doesn't mean that the law is going to support our countersuit. What it means is that we're availing ourselves of every opportunity, and I might add not just ourselves but a whole host of independent labels.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes. My interest is in what the status of this lawsuit is now, because isoHunt are the main players. They're mentioned again and again. You guys right now are the only ones—

[Graham Henderson]

Right. I'm not so sure; it's litigation.

J.P., you could talk more about that than I can.