Evidence of meeting #6 for Bill C-32 (40th Parliament, 3rd Session) in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was copyright.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Roanie Levy  General Counsel and Director, Policy and External Affairs, Access Copyright
Brian Isaac  Chair, Canadian Anti-Counterfeiting Network
Annie Morin  Chair of the Board, Canadian Private Copying Collective
Sophie Milman  Artist, Canadian Private Copying Collective
Ysolde Gendreau  President, Association Littéraire et Artistique Internationale (ALAI Canada)
Glen Bloom  Chair, Copyright Legislation Committee (Technical), Intellectual Property Institute of Canada
Angela Crandall  Procedural Clerk

4:30 p.m.

Chair of the Board, Canadian Private Copying Collective

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

It seems to me that other instruments can be used. Currently, BlackBerries, by adding some kind of chip... I'm not up on the new technology—

December 6th, 2010 / 4:30 p.m.

Chair of the Board, Canadian Private Copying Collective

Annie Morin

Yes, definitely. You're talking about a music card.

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

You can copy music—potentially, I mean—on the music card that's included in a BlackBerry. A BlackBerry may not be subject to a levy, but the card—

4:30 p.m.

Chair of the Board, Canadian Private Copying Collective

Annie Morin

The movable music card? Look, that's perhaps something that should be submitted to the Copyright Board to see whether it might be a blank audio medium that could eventually be subject to the levy. However, with regard to the BlackBerry as such, I have never seen any advertisements suggesting that it can be used to copy music. They don't talk about that; it's not marketed for the purpose of—

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

That's it, it's not the instrument that makes the copy, but it's the fact of adding a card to it.

4:30 p.m.

Chair of the Board, Canadian Private Copying Collective

Annie Morin

A movable electronic memory card could perhaps be subject to a levy; I don't know. That will be for the Copyright Board to rule on.

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

I'd like to go back to the levy-setting methodology. Is it based on anticipated revenue or compensation for all works copied? Earlier you referred to a figure of 90% of the content of MP3 players that had not been subject to the payment of any royalty, and you said that it had fallen to 85%. Is it with the aid of this information that you...?

4:30 p.m.

Chair of the Board, Canadian Private Copying Collective

Annie Morin

First, the board starts by determining whether it is a medium ordinarily used to copy music. Once that is established and it believes that a levy may be imposed, it will assess the extent to which, the frequency at which it is used to make copies of music.

I'm just going to request a detail from the woman who is with me.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gord Brown

Okay. We will have to get that quickly.

4:30 p.m.

Chair of the Board, Canadian Private Copying Collective

Annie Morin

That's it; the board will verify the frequency at which it is used to copy music. Based on that, it will establish the value of the copies made. For example, a copy made on a blank CD has a certain value. It will assess various criteria to determine what value the copy made on an MP3 medium will have. Once that is established, it will then do repertory studies to determine what percentage of works are used, where those works come from and, at that point, will allocate the amounts between the Songwriters Association of Canada, the performers and the producers, but it's a very complex process.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gord Brown

That will have to be it.

We're going to move to Mr. Braid for a quick five minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of our witnesses for being here.

I'm going to attempt to be magnanimous and pose a question to each of you. I'll start with Madam Morin.

Does the CPCC currently have definitions of devices that are ordinarily used to copy music, and what devices does that definition cover?

4:35 p.m.

Chair of the Board, Canadian Private Copying Collective

Annie Morin

It absolutely covers DARs, what we call digital audio recorders. When we asked for a levy on them, even the Federal Court of Appeal said it was really clear that they were devices ordinarily used to copy music. Unfortunately, the terms of the law don't allow us to apply a levy because they're not media; they're devices. So it's definitive that DARs are ordinarily used to copy music. I can assure you of that.

When I was asked about the chips that you put into BlackBerrys...it is difficult for me to say. I would tend to say yes, but then it's not for me to say yes or no. But in the case of the DARs, this is clearly a yes, and the Federal Court of Appeal has mentioned this.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Thank you.

Ms. Milman, I want to come back to an earlier example you gave, one of the reasons why those who are opposed to an iPod tax or levy, whatever we want to call it, struggle with this concept. You gave an example where somebody legitimately buys a CD, and they want to copy that music onto an iPod or some listening device. You're proposing they pay twice—once when they buy the CD and then again when they copy it onto the listening device. Is that correct?

4:35 p.m.

Artist, Canadian Private Copying Collective

Sophie Milman

Let me qualify what you're saying.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Okay. And how do you think consumers would welcome or embrace that?

4:35 p.m.

Artist, Canadian Private Copying Collective

Sophie Milman

First of all, we expect them not to pay as much for the second copy, a very small percentage of what they originally paid for what they purchased. So we do expect them to pay a bit, not as much, but to pay nonetheless, because every single copy generates value. People wouldn't be doing things if they didn't receive value from the things they do. That's what our economy is based on. It's value paid for value received.

So when people make a copy...they listen to the CD at home, they make a copy onto their iPod that they can listen to at the cottage, in the car, while jogging. They're enjoying music under different circumstances on a different device. As our research has shown, the Canadian public is quite open to artists being compensated for copies made of their work. So this whole issue that people somehow will rebel is false.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

To ensure that artists are properly compensated, shouldn't the focus be on ensuring that artists receive dollars and not pennies? And would you not agree it's important to ensure that the legal market for music, and the legitimate purchase of music, is bolstered and protected? In some European countries that have implemented legislation similar to Bill C-32, the legal market for music has been further supported and bolstered and protected. Are you familiar with those examples, and would you agree that's where the focus should be?

4:35 p.m.

Artist, Canadian Private Copying Collective

Sophie Milman

It is important to bolster the legal market. It is important to go after those file-sharing companies, but I don't think you will ever be able to eliminate them completely. Even if you do, it doesn't account for the music that's already out there on the Internet, free floating. You might help artists who are coming up tomorrow, but for artists like me who have been active for six years and have three albums, all of my material is now online and can be shared freely on these websites that pop up all over the world. To your comment “dollars, not pennies”, we want to receive dollars and pennies. We deserve dollars and pennies.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Thank you.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gord Brown

You have 15 or 20 seconds.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

I apologize, Madam Levy.

Mr. Isaac, could you quickly explain why we need to combat Internet piracy? What is it, and why do we need to fight it and eliminate it?

4:35 p.m.

Chair, Canadian Anti-Counterfeiting Network

Brian Isaac

It's a huge problem that drains a huge amount of money from legitimate economies. In the case of commercial piracy, it's being drained from the legitimate economy into a black market. So that alone is enough reason to say why it has to be done. We need improved tools. It's very difficult to do it now with the tools we have.

Thank you.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gord Brown

Thank you very much.

Thank you to our witnesses.

We'll suspend for a few minutes, and our second panel will come in.