Evidence of meeting #6 for Bill C-32 (40th Parliament, 3rd Session) in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was copyright.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Roanie Levy  General Counsel and Director, Policy and External Affairs, Access Copyright
Brian Isaac  Chair, Canadian Anti-Counterfeiting Network
Annie Morin  Chair of the Board, Canadian Private Copying Collective
Sophie Milman  Artist, Canadian Private Copying Collective
Ysolde Gendreau  President, Association Littéraire et Artistique Internationale (ALAI Canada)
Glen Bloom  Chair, Copyright Legislation Committee (Technical), Intellectual Property Institute of Canada
Angela Crandall  Procedural Clerk

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gord Brown

Thank you very much.

We'll move to the government side. Madame Boucher, pour sept minutes.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Good afternoon. I'm going to share my time with Mr. Del Mastro.

I have a simple question for both of you. Do you think it's important for there to be a reform of the Copyright Act? Yes or no, and why?

5:15 p.m.

Chair, Copyright Legislation Committee (Technical), Intellectual Property Institute of Canada

Glen Bloom

I do believe there is need for new copyright legislation. The legislation does need to be modernized. The legislation does not address many of the issues in the digital environment that are critical for both creativity and for the dissemination and use of works, and therefore it is necessary to modernize our act.

5:15 p.m.

President, Association Littéraire et Artistique Internationale (ALAI Canada)

Ysolde Gendreau

I would agree. It's possible to adapt the act thanks to the case law. However, it needs to be modernized and updated. It's missing provisions.

The treaties that are being implemented, such as the WIPO treaties, make it possible, in a way, to accommodate the new reality. Technology is evolving so quickly that we have to adjust to ensure that those who disseminate know they have to consider the rights of authors and creators.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC

So there could be negative consequences for creators and consumers if Bill C-32, An Act to amend the Copyright Act, were not passed? That's what you're saying?

5:15 p.m.

President, Association Littéraire et Artistique Internationale (ALAI Canada)

Ysolde Gendreau

Yes, it seems to me. Lastly, it seems to me that the issues we're discussing about this bill aren't resolved. That's why we're all here. Because they haven't been resolved, they're creating a lot of uncertainty. They're also creating what is sometimes called a climate of discomfort for users who are used to ways of doing things. Then it becomes more difficult for the government to impose regulations, since people are used to there being no regulations.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Sylvie Boucher Conservative Beauport—Limoilou, QC

Thank you.

Mr. Del Mastro.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Thank you very much to both witnesses. I enjoyed hearing your testimony.

Ms. Gendreau, it appears that Madam Lavallée would like to have you say that under no circumstances should we ever pass the bill. It's at a legislative committee where it can be amended, frankly, but she seems to be suggesting that under no circumstances should we pass a bill if it has a mistake in it.

Have you ever seen a bill before a legislative committee that shouldn't be worked on? The bill has value, correct?

December 6th, 2010 / 5:20 p.m.

President, Association Littéraire et Artistique Internationale (ALAI Canada)

Ysolde Gendreau

Well, I can actually give you examples of things I like in the bill.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Wonderful. Why don't you give us a few things that you like about the bill?

5:20 p.m.

President, Association Littéraire et Artistique Internationale (ALAI Canada)

Ysolde Gendreau

There are things that are positive in this bill.

For instance, the fact that photographers are finally being treated like other authors--

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

And they're excited about it.

5:20 p.m.

President, Association Littéraire et Artistique Internationale (ALAI Canada)

Ysolde Gendreau

I think that's an extremely important fact. I did my doctoral thesis on them, so this is an issue I know about. I think the enabling provisions in proposed subsections 27(2.2) and (2.3) are very important.

Anything that affords greater moral rights to performers, as mandated by the WIPO treaties or within the working of exceptions, where we say that, yes, it's important for people to be recognized when their works are being used, I think is extremely positive.

I think as I mentioned earlier, the fair dealing for the purpose of parody or satire is a very welcome exception, and I'm also happy about the fact that for the moment we're not talking about extending the term of protection from life to 50 to life plus 70. So I think there are indeed positive elements in the bill.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bloom, you spoke a little bit about TPMs--technical protection measures, or digital locks, as they're sometimes referred to. I know there are some around the table, Mr. Angus in particular.... In fact, we had Dr. Michael Geist in last week, who has devoted a lot of his time to the study of copyright. They are of the opinion that to be WIPO compliant you can allow TPMs to be taken down for personal purposes and still be WIPO-compliant. Is that your position?

5:20 p.m.

Chair, Copyright Legislation Committee (Technical), Intellectual Property Institute of Canada

Glen Bloom

No. Our committee simply looked at the bill as it's drafted to determine whether it's WIPO compliant. We did not look at and have not considered whether, if there were lower standards of protection, it would also be WIPO compliant. We'd need to see what the lower protection was if that were the government's policy direction.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

But as constructed right now, you consider it a measure that is providing for WIPO compliance.

5:20 p.m.

Chair, Copyright Legislation Committee (Technical), Intellectual Property Institute of Canada

Glen Bloom

It's our opinion that the TPM provision certainly meets the requirements under the WIPO treaties.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

There are organizations, such as the Canadian recording industry, such as the entertainment software industry, film companies, and many others--it's a long list--that have specifically said, “You know what? Allow the market to work. If you put these measures in place, it doesn't mean that we have to use them. It means that we can use protection measures if we choose, to dictate how copying can take place.”

In fact, it would work for music just fine. If we set in place a market whereby people actually pay for music rather than get it for free, as they do now, largely, we could then allow them to say that you can make a copy for a digital device or two copies for digital devices, and we'll lock it down after that.

Doesn't that seem like a reasonable and rational way to go about ensuring that copyright owners, the people who own the copyright, actually are extending a licence that allows them to make money and establish a market?

5:20 p.m.

Chair, Copyright Legislation Committee (Technical), Intellectual Property Institute of Canada

Glen Bloom

I spoke earlier about the need for modernization. One of the critical needs for modernization is to provide a regime of protection to enable a marketplace to operate in the digital environment. That's what this bill is seeking to do, and that's what Canada needs to do to meet its international obligations. So to the extent that we are addressing these issues in the WIPO treaties, that is certainly a positive step in modernizing our legislation.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

We keep on trying to imply, across the way, how important it is that we move forward. It's been a long time that we have been trying to modernize the Copyright Act, and we really want to get moving on this.

Has your group done any work or heard testimony that you aware of on the amount of money that could be being funnelled into black markets and could be lost to industry, to artists, and others, that would otherwise be invested in the Canadian economy?

5:20 p.m.

Chair, Copyright Legislation Committee (Technical), Intellectual Property Institute of Canada

Glen Bloom

Well, certainly there are studies. We've not considered those studies. They've been largely done by other groups, other rights-holder groups. We're somewhat more neutral than that, but certainly those studies do exist.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Thank you.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gord Brown

Thank you very much.

We clearly do not have time for another round, but we do have a couple of minutes. If our witnesses have anything more they'd like to say, I'll give you a minute each.

5:25 p.m.

Chair, Copyright Legislation Committee (Technical), Intellectual Property Institute of Canada

Glen Bloom

I have nothing to add.

5:25 p.m.

President, Association Littéraire et Artistique Internationale (ALAI Canada)

Ysolde Gendreau

Perhaps I could add something. There are two things I would add.

There are other provisions in the act that may go against the grain of international conventions, not just the ones dealing with exceptions. Proposed section 30.04, on works made available on the Internet, or publicly available material, as they're also known, is reliant, in part, on the existence of a notice that would be put by the copyright owner to prevent copying. This raises serious issues concerning the Berne requirement that copyright does not depend on the existence of formalities.

There's also something that is very puzzling in that we have expanded here the exceptions for persons with perceptual deficiencies, something that is, of course, a very laudable purpose. There is already an exception for this purpose. However, right now, you may know that there is an international treaty being discussed. It's a bit ironic that we should be doing something about this issue before there's actually a treaty in place. So that would be quite different.

Overall, I think I would simply say that the 21st century is supposed to be a century that is based on the knowledge economy. Copyright, as an intellectual property right, protects a form of knowledge. Therefore, it is important to recognize the protection of what is being created by creators and promoted by copyright owners if we are to be an important player in this knowledge economy, with the manufacturing sector in decline in our countries.

Thank you.