Evidence of meeting #12 for Canada-China Relations in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was kong.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Christine Holke
Evan S. Medeiros  Penner Family Chair in Asian Studies, Georgetown University
Alvin Y.H. Cheung  Non-Resident Affiliated Scholar, US-Asia Law Institute, New York University School of Law
Lynette H. Ong  Professor of Political Science and Global Affairs, University of Toronto
Stéphane Chatigny  Lawyer, As an Individual
Sharon Hom  Executive Director, Human Rights in China
Malte Philipp Kaeding  Assistant Professor in International Politics, University of Surrey

2 p.m.

Liberal

Lenore Zann Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Of course.

2 p.m.

Executive Director, Human Rights in China

Sharon Hom

You should keep in mind that when you see mainlanders being interviewed on public TV, you should be aware of what they can say. Of course, some of them actually do believe in wolf-warrior diplomacy, but I also believe that when anyone is speaking on TV, any forced confession will tell you that you have to be very cautious about what you say.

What I do think is an indication, despite the fact that this was my point, is that you are seeing ordinary mainlanders such as taxi drivers—not activists—posting on social media in support of Hong Kong people and getting picked up. I think that's an indication of how powerful it is—how, despite all the censorship, you can't shut down the information flow, even with the law, even with all the apparatus of law and security and the technology apparatus. We didn't even talk about the technology aspects of all this, and perhaps that would be a good follow-up hearing.

So that's extremely important. We have actually looked at and tried to compile cases of mainlanders who support this. I think it's quite shocking and encouraging that one person.... Mainland law requires real-name registration. This means that when you post online or do anything online in the mainland, you have to register with your real name, which means they can track you down and they know your IP address, so that one person who posted a one-star review of the Hong Kong national security law was really courageous to do that.

You can say anything you want in China, as long as it's consistent with the party narrative. The minute you even question or characterize it, you could run afoul of it with charges of incitement, sedition, disloyalty, being anti-China, etc.

I'm not sure if I answered the question.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Lenore Zann Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you very much.

I'm a bit confused, because earlier you mentioned that we should be very careful and not completely cut off Hong Kong and act as if they are dead, to realize that the environment is thriving in trying to be as democratic as possible against great odds. You also mentioned that we should not be creating certain sanctions that will hurt all of the Chinese people.

When you're talking about targeted sanctions, are you only talking about targeted sanctions and not suggesting that we do broad, sweeping sanctions in, say, agriculture or seafood exports to China and things like that?

2 p.m.

Executive Director, Human Rights in China

Sharon Hom

I'm not an economist or an expert on any of those things. We haven't taken any really strong position on general sanctions, because I think that requires expertise beyond that of human rights. However, one of the Confucius Institutes that is about to close down exports lobster to China. They're not going to close down because of the problem of lobster.

I know there are other interests, but targeted sanctions—I said this already and I don't want to repeat it in this limited time—can work if you target more than the twelve. There's actually a meme circulating in Hong Kong, and I won't say it because of the words, but it's based on the film Ocean's Eleven.

When I said not to cut off Hong Kong, what I was trying to emphasize is that, yes, urgent humanitarian solutions, which everyone is focusing on, to get those out who need to get out—

2 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you—

2 p.m.

Executive Director, Human Rights in China

Sharon Hom

I'm urging you to pay attention to the situation of those who choose to remain or can't leave. That's what I meant.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Lenore Zann Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Thank you very much. Thank you for that clarification.

2 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you, Ms. Zann.

Mr. Bergeron now has the floor for two and a half minutes.

2 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, regarding sanctions, perhaps I am setting the cat among the pigeons, but it appears that, if one wants to harm the goose that lays the golden egg, meaning the People's Republic of China, it may actually be worth considering sanctions that will affect Hong Kong's economic efficiency. In any event, the witnesses may wish to comment on the issue.

In addition, following up on my colleague Mr. Dubourg's question, Ms. Hom, I wonder what role Canada could play in terms of legislation, based on its experience with bijuralism and bilingualism. What kind of assistance could it provide?

2:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Human Rights in China

Sharon Hom

First, support the legal experts, particularly in Hong Kong, who are in the universities and in the law schools doing very concrete technical work and thinking constructively about what can be done to interpret, apply, implement and narrow the law. As we know, the national security law and criminal law, under common law jurisprudence, must be interpreted and applied as restrictively and narrowly as possible, not broadly. That is just a general rule.

Second, in terms of support, I think we need to focus on the things you can do—not just to punish, threaten and condemn, but to proactively and constructively support. For example, China is an observer member of the Arctic Council. Canada is important at the Arctic Council. I think the way to think about it is that it's just like environmental sustainability. Canada and other countries engage in environmental sustainability analysis and assessment of all of your trade and other actions. You need to do this with human rights. You need to integrate it into investment. You need to integrate human rights due diligence, or else you haven't exercised due diligence, either as a government policy or for companies.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

You have 15 seconds left.

2:05 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Perhaps Ms. Hom would like to comment on harming the goose that lays the golden egg.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

You have only a couple of seconds.

2:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Human Rights in China

Sharon Hom

Put simply, I do not believe in harming Hong Kong generally. I think that just goes without saying. The trick is how to do razor-tight surgery and not beat people with a bat.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you very much.

Mr. Harris, you have two and a half minutes.

2:05 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I hope you can hear me. I had to switch to a cellphone. My service phone ran out of battery power.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

We do hear you.

2:05 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Okay.

Mr. Kaeding, it's been suggested by earlier witnesses that Hong Kong could go either way. We've seen arrests of high-profile people in this quick crackdown—not that others haven't been arrested too, mind you. The law itself is open to a terrific amount of selective enforcement. It could go either way. It could keep up or taper off.

You can't predict, of course, but does it matter what reaction we would have? Would our reaction as Canadians have any effect?

2:05 p.m.

Assistant Professor in International Politics, University of Surrey

Dr. Malte Philipp Kaeding

Of course you're right that we don't know how they will apply this, but I think we can see that what Carrie Lam said at the beginning, that it would be only a very small number of people, is not true. It is broader than we had all feared. Without a reaction from Canada and like-minded countries, I think they will assume that this is now accepted, that they have been successful in intimidating Hong Kong people and actually getting what they want from Hong Kong without any reaction from the international community, so I think there should be a reaction by Canada.

2:05 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Thank you.

Professor Hom, could you add to what you said before? You've been quoted as saying that you have “faith” in the long arc of history bending towards justice. I think that's a very hopeful and purposeful comment. You also said that Hong Kongers “know they have to play the long game”. Jimmy Lai, even since his recent arrest, has talked about the fact that tactical changes might have to take place in order to be effective and creative in the longer run.

Can you tell us what the next steps might be for the pro-democracy movement and what we should be watching for and encouraging in whatever way we can?

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Keep your response to 15 seconds, please.

2:05 p.m.

Executive Director, Human Rights in China

Sharon Hom

Take article 4 of the national security law and ICCPR protection seriously. In particular, with regard to article 55 jurisdiction of cases that are brought to the mainland, they cannot be under the mainland criminal security law and the criminal procedure law, which they will be subject to, but we need to have the international community and Canada speak out to ensure that any case that is taken to the mainland must first comply with due process protections under article 4 of the national security law and ICCPR.

They're being cautious about that right now. The first case they bring in will generate, and should generate, international scrutiny—

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you, Professor. We're over Mr. Harris's time.

We've come to the end of our second panel and the end of the meeting.

First of all, to the witnesses, thank you so much on behalf of all the members. We are very grateful for your presence, your time and your testimony.

I can see members applauding from their distant locations.

I want to remind members that our next meeting is Tuesday, August 25, at 11 a.m. eastern time.

For those of us in Nova Scotia, that's noon, of course. For Jack it's a little later; half an hour later.

Thank you so much. The meeting is adjourned.