Canada-China Relations Committee on Jan. 30th, 2020

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here and for all the work you are doing on this issue, which is beyond complicated, to be frank.

Deputy Minister, although she didn't elaborate on it, I believe my colleague was criticizing the government for not going ahead and signing a free trade agreement with China, which in her view would have made getting over the current impasse that Canada finds itself in—the current challenges—easier. How long do free trade agreements take to negotiate, especially when thinking about a country like China?

[Marta Morgan]

Mr. Chair, my colleague Steve Verheul will be very well placed to give more detail on trade agreements, but I would just say that they generally take quite a while to negotiate, and particularly where the partner is a complicated and a large partner, such as China is for Canada.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I will certainly be putting that question to Mr. Verheul as well. However, I think it's fair to say that it would take longer than three or four years. Is that...?

[Marta Morgan]

Depending on the country involved and the complexity of issues, it could easily take that long.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Okay.

There is also a context here, I think, that you alluded to in your remarks, but I wonder if you could go into that. We're dealing with a superpower. Canada is a middle power. There's also another superpower—obviously, the United States—which has ongoing disagreements on a range of issues vis-à-vis the Chinese. Canada, it seems, is caught in the middle. Our position as a middle power conditions or dictates our foreign policy choices on a good day, but especially when we're caught in-between these two great powers, I think this obviously has a lot to play. It really is important to pay attention to that.

Can you go into, Deputy Minister, the challenges of Canada's navigating what is, really, a difficult time in the relations between the U.S. and China as well?

[Marta Morgan]

There's been a lot written about the strategic rivalry between a status quo power and an emerging power. This might make a great future study for the committee. There are many views to take into account.

As a middle power, Canada has relied strongly on international rules and norms in institutions, and to protect businesses and our economic interests, as well as to promote peace and stability. We believe that is the strongest framework within which we can operate as a middle power.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Canada is not unique among liberal democracies in facing challenges with the Chinese government. Is that correct?

[Marta Morgan]

Yes, that is absolutely correct.

You will see during your investigation by the committee, I'm sure, Mr. Chair, that a number of countries have had challenges in their relationship with China. In many cases, these challenges can take quite a while to resolve.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Although we did hear about it in the questioning by Ms. Alleslev, can you go into the building of a coalition by the Canadian government to engage like-minded countries—liberal democracies in particular—when it comes to this issue? Can you speak to how important that is and how that was cultivated? Putting together that kind of effort, that sort of partnership, doesn't happen overnight. That happens over time, and I think that over time it can yield very good results. Can you speak to that?

[Marta Morgan]

Yes, Mr. Chair. We have really benefited from the support and strength of many like-minded countries on this issue.

This has required a significant effort at all levels of the Government of Canada, starting with the Prime Minister, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and all of our officials, both here in Ottawa and in Beijing.

Paul has just informed me that over the last year and a bit we made over 1,000 démarches to other countries in order to secure support for us and Mr. Spavor and Mr. Kovrig. You can see that our efforts have been very intense and at all levels and that countries really came forward of their own volition as well, because this is recognized as a particularly challenging situation and very inappropriate.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I have about one minute left. With so many Canadians concerned about the coronavirus, I think you've seen the government respond very quickly and in a very organized fashion when it comes to this. You did speak to this in your remarks, but can you elaborate once more on what exactly the Canadian government is doing to bring Canadians home from China and to ensure their safety once they arrive in Canada?

[Marta Morgan]

Thank you.

The Public Health Agency of Canada has the lead in coordinating the domestic efforts to manage the outbreak of the coronavirus. Global Affairs Canada is focusing on the well-being of Canadians in China and travel advice and also on the well-being of our consular and diplomatic staff.

As Minister Champagne announced yesterday, the Government of Canada has reserved a plane to repatriate Canadians from Wuhan, which is at the epicentre of China's coronavirus. We will be working with the Public Health Agency of Canada, Health Canada and our American colleagues to ensure that Canadians here are protected upon the return of those individuals and that things are handled appropriately from a public health perspective.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

It's a coordinated response.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

The floor now goes to Mr. Bergeron.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to welcome our witnesses and thank them for that presentation. I confess in all sincerity—and I do not say this pejoratively—that I was expecting a statement that was a little more syrupy and full of generalities, having heard that Chinese authorities must be following the appearance this morning very attentively. So my thanks to you for your presentation.

Just now, a comparison was made between the difficulties that Canada is currently experiencing with the People’s Republic of China and the difficulties that other western democracies could be experiencing with the same country. I am not sure that this is a good basis for comparison.

Traditionally, in fact, Canada has developed excellent relations with the People’s Republic of China more quickly than other western democracies. This may be because of the influence of a man like Norman Bethune, because of the food aid that you mentioned in your presentation, or because of the involvement of the father of the current Prime Minister. Canada's relations with the People’s Republic of China have always been excellent, until the unfortunate episode involving the arrest of Meng Wanzhou, which made Canada the battlefield for two superpowers in their negotiations with each other.

The American government’s involvement seems interesting to me. Whatever the good intentions, the Americans always first and foremost defend their own interests, not ours, in the negotiations that they are currently conducting with China. As a consequence, I believe that they have used Canada for their own interests by demanding that Meng Wanzhou be arrested and extradited to the United States. President Trump confirmed as much a few days ago when he stated that all that would be needed to drop the demand to extradite Meng Wanzhou is an agreement with China. That highlights the difficulty in which we find ourselves at the moment.

I am going to ask my questions all at once, because I know that they keep track of our time.

You emphasize that the Communist Party’s control over China as a state is constantly increasing. This despite the fact that Canada has modified its traditional position towards China, a position that always focussed on the question of human rights. During the 1990s, Canada decided to put more emphasis on the development of trade relations. That approach had considerable success, as you mentioned. But we can clearly see that it had very little positive effect on the human rights situation.

Given the hold that the Communist Party has on China as a state, let me first ask you this question. Are Canada’s relations limited to China as a state or are we also trying to develop relations with the Communist Party?

My second question is about the arrest of Meng Wanzhou. Given that she is accused of breaking United States sanctions against Iran, sanctions that Canada does not even apply, what justified that arrest? I know that the matter is now before the courts and that unfortunately it is no longer possible to respond politically, which immediately rules out the possibility of a prisoner exchange. Such an exchange would damage Canada’s assertion that we are governed by the rule of law, not to mention that it would invite any other country in the world to imprison Canadians in that kind of manoeuvre.

How do you explain the impact of having no Canadian ambassador in Beijing for those months? Does it not prove to the Chinese authorities that, basically, the arrest of the two Michaels is not that important for the Canadian government, which has left the ambassador’s residence vacant for several months during this crisis?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Ms. Morgan, you have a minute and fifteen seconds for your answer.

[Marta Morgan]

Okay, I will try to answer all the questions.

First, I agree that our relations with China have been excellent for a number of years, and we have always had good face-to-face relationships. In the field of trade, we have many very complex relationships that require contacts. We are developing the relationships at all levels of Chinese society and government. China is a major country in the world and the relationships that we have with them are very important for us all.

Now I will answer the question about Meng Wanzhou.

Canada is abiding by its international legal obligations in this case. We are working in accordance with the Extradition Act and our bilateral extradition treaty with the United States. I believe the committee will be receiving briefings by Department of Justice officials on these matters as early as next week. This proceeding is currently before the Supreme Court of B.C. and it will be up to an independent judge to resolve.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much.

Now we have Mr. Harris.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I want to thank the witnesses for their very thorough presentation.

The relationship with China is I think a fairly long-lasting one, of course, to the extent that Canada was among the first to help with the recognition of China and to bring it into international relations in a different way. One would assume that we have built a very strong relationship over the many years, with 50 years coming up.

In that context, I'm a little concerned that China's ambassador to Canada back in May spoke of the relationship as being at a “freezing point” and was concerned that Canada ought to respect China's major concerns and “stop the moves that undermine the interests of China”. It seems to me to be a rather aggressive statement, given the context of the relations with Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor and the other issues, such as the tariff put on Canadian goods and the stopping of canola and other goods.

How do you see that kind of statement? Do you know what they're saying when they say “stop the moves that undermine the interests of China”? Is it something that concerns you that they would take that view?

[Marta Morgan]

Mr. Chair, I cannot speak, obviously, for the Government of China, but clearly they have taken a very strong public position in the case of Madam Meng, and that public position has been quite firm. I would invite you to invite our ambassador to China to Canada to seek further insight into the views of the Government of China.

What I can tell you is that we are very concerned with the current situation, and particularly with the arbitrary detention and arrest by Chinese authorities of Mr. Kovrig and Mr. Spavor.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Yes, of course, we all are, and it's probably one of the motivating forces that got this committee going in the first place.

I want to ask you about the efforts that have been made. You've indicated that over 1,000 démarches have been issued by Canada.

I find the number of 14 countries that are supporting Canada to be disappointingly low. You've indicated that they have come forward of their own volition. Does that mean we are not constantly seeking support from other countries? What is the strategy here?

[Marta Morgan]

Mr. Chair, we are constantly seeking support from other countries. I'll pass this question on to Mr. Thoppil to provide more context and detail on that.

[Paul Thoppil, Assistant Deputy Minister, Asia Pacific, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There are a number of countries that have publicly expressed...and a number that have expressed a desire to do so in a private bilateral way with China. Therefore, in total, we take great comfort with the number of countries in totality that have indicated in their engagement with—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

How many would that be?

[Paul Thoppil]

There is quite a number. We can give you a list afterwards if the committee would prefer, but besides countries, there is the Secretary General of NATO, there is the EU and there are the G7 foreign ministers, who have all, in addition to those 14 countries, publicly committed an expression of disappointment and consternation with the arbitrary detention of Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig.