Evidence of meeting #8 for Canada-China Relations in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was countries.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
Thank you very much to all our witnesses.
I want to build on what I thought was a really fine question from Ms. Alleslev. It had to do with Canada's approach. I recognize you're not Canadian. I recognize, in the answers you've given, a very American approach to both foreign policy and to China, which will be absolutely respected by Canada, but you are in a very different power position in the world than Canada. You have economic tools. You have not, as a country, actually engaged multilaterally with China, as you are suggesting is appropriate. You have actually acted as a country unilaterally, many times without looking at the impact on Canada and your allies.
You are suggesting it is very important to act multilaterally, yet the United States is not acting multilaterally. What is it you are really suggesting? I recognize you're coming at it as an American. I hear American language. I hear American politics. I hear American diplomacy, but do you have something to suggest, from that experience, for a small country that necessarily counts on its allies?
I would have all three of you answer, if you would like.
12:45 p.m.
Senior Adviser for Asia and Director, China Power Project, Center for Strategic and International Studies, As an Individual
Thank you for the question. I think it's an important one.
I'm certainly an American, but I'm an expert on China. I examine how countries around the world deal with China and what has worked and what has not. There are many middle powers and others that have been the target of economic pressure from China and have tried different approaches.
I already talked about Japan, so I will take this opportunity to cite Australia, which of course recognized that there was significant political interference in its society, its politics, and decided to pass new laws and prioritize this issue. The lesson from Australia I think is on setting priorities. There have been examples where, frankly, the United States has reached out to Australia and encouraged it to make other things a priority, to add, for example, freedom of navigation in the South China Sea to its list of priorities. The Australians have looked at all the challenges they face with China and said, look, we're going to pick the two or three that are really vital to Australian interests; with regard to the others, we care about the others, but we're not going to try to beat China over the head on everything.
I think China has respected that approach.
12:45 p.m.
Professor and Director, China Policy Program, The George Washington University, As an Individual
On the question of multilateralism, I agree with you, sir. The United States has frequently acted unilaterally. Particularly under this administration, it is lamentable, to put it mildly, and it's ineffective.
With respect to China, the Trump administration's China policies—I personally agree with most of them—would have all been much more effective if they had been coordinated in tandem with other OECD members, including Canada. Going forward, that is absolutely imperative: solidarity, multilateralism, united front approaches to China. Otherwise, they do yi yi zh yi, divide and rule the “foreign barbarians”, as they call us.
Do you want me to go back to the previous question that I didn't have a chance to answer?
12:45 p.m.
Professor and Director, China Policy Program, The George Washington University, As an Individual
It's linked to Yun Sun's opening statement about China's identity being rooted in the 19th century sort of victim narrative because of its encounter with the west and Japan. I would add that China's identity is also profoundly rooted in the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Soviet Communist Party, and the other communist party states in eastern Europe and Mongolia. That lives with the Chinese Communist Party and their leadership on a daily basis. They write about it. They speak about it. They are seized with it.
So it's not just—
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON
That's helpful. Thanks.
I want to go to Ms. Sun quickly.
Do you have any comment?
12:45 p.m.
Director, China Program, The Stimson Center, As an Individual
First of all, I think Canada needs to develop leverage and influence vis-à-vis China unilaterally, without the collaboration with the United States.
Second, China has an ultimate respect for power. When you look at how India reacted to China in the Doklam standoff, and in South Korea Geun-hye's decision to deploy THAAD, in the end, China paid respect to it.
Certainly, if you look at Europe and how some NATO countries have kept the U.S. at arm's length in order to maintain their policy flexibility, I think there are a lot of lessons to be learned.
12:45 p.m.
Director, China Program, The Stimson Center, As an Individual
Last but not least, I think Australia offers a case where allies can be actively shaping U.S. priority and U.S. policy.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
These discussions are simply fascinating.
We finally realize that Canada, like most countries in the world, must try to find its place in this struggle between two superpowers, the United States and China, one being our ally, the other being a power with which we have always had excellent relations in the past.
What is Russia's place in this new international system that seems to be taking shape, according to what you say?
12:50 p.m.
Senior Adviser for Asia and Director, China Power Project, Center for Strategic and International Studies, As an Individual
Again, none of us are Russia experts, but I can certainly highlight the fact that Russia and China are increasingly working together in the international system. They are working in the UN to develop their own methods of cyber-governance that prioritize sovereignty and oppose individual freedom. They are working together militarily. They are developing, now, early warning systems together. They have worked together on missile defence. We saw, only a few months ago, the first-ever joint patrol between Russian and Chinese air forces fly over territory disputed between South Korea and Japan, aimed at dividing the United States' two allies in Northeast Asia: Japan and South Korea.
I think this is because those two countries share an interest in opposing what they see as American hegemony. They want to change the rules, the norms, in the international system. I think the more the United States highlights that both of these countries are revisionist powers, the more this has given them an even greater incentive to work together.
12:50 p.m.
Director, China Program, The Stimson Center, As an Individual
Russia is China's strategic partner, and the coordination of their national security and foreign policy strategies has enhanced and intensified in the past several years. They provide neutral support on issues of importance for them, such as China on Syria and Russia on the South China Sea. Russia has been an anchor for China to launch its campaign into the Arctic through the Yamal project and development of the northern sea route.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan
Thank you.
I appreciate the very short comments. I'm sorry for the very short time we have for all of the questions.
Ms. McPherson, you have two and a half minutes.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
We just talked about Russia. We've certainly spoken quite a lot about the United States today.
Mr. Shambaugh, you spoke about the global south, and I know, Ms. Sun, that you spoke a little bit about the increased connection between China and Africa. Is there a potential for us to be building coalitions with countries in sub-Saharan Africa, or has the role China has played in sub-Saharan Africa made that an impossible thing going forward?
12:50 p.m.
Professor and Director, China Policy Program, The George Washington University, As an Individual
I'll defer to Ms. Sun. I think she knows more about it than I do, but I would just observe that the potential for partnerships between OECD countries and the global south vis-à-vis China and other global issues is substantial. We should think not just about working with like-minded democracies north of the equator; there are numerous democracies south of the equator that are also natural partners for us.
12:50 p.m.
Director, China Program, The Stimson Center, As an Individual
I think the theme here is to offer an alternative to what China is offering to Africa. Japan is playing an increasingly big role in this arena, in things other than the Chinese business contracts and Chinese infrastructure projects. I think countries like Canada could provide a very healthy and much more sustainable development path to the countries in Africa, and this also involves significant capacity building that I do believe Canada's foreign aid program is involved in.
All of these are laying the foundation for a more democratic system and more sustainable development in the African continent.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Just to follow up on that, at the moment our development dollars that are going to sub-Saharan Africa are quite low—historically low. Would you see investing in infrastructure in countries in sub-Saharan Africa and increasing the amount of official development assistance that we are allocating to those regions being things in which we could increase capacity?
12:50 p.m.
Director, China Program, The Stimson Center, As an Individual
I think there is an absolute need on the ground, and there is also an absolute sense of urgency.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal