Evidence of meeting #9 for Canada-China Relations in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chinese.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Christine Holke
Lobsang Sangay  Sikyong, President, Central Tibetan Administration
David Mulroney  Former Ambassador of Canada to the People's Republic of China, As an Individual

4 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

That's not an impediment, I guess.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Now we will go to the second round.

Ms. Alleslev, you have five minutes.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you very much.

Thank you so very much for being here, especially since it is so late. My apologies that I don't have any phrases in Tibetan, but I will say in English how important it is and how much we support you and Tibet in the cause. As you said, Tibet is the first casualty, and none of us are immune. We need to provide that support, not only to Tibet but also to ensure that we don't lose our freedoms in the same course as well.

On December 19, the Americans passed the Reciprocal Access to Tibet Act. It required the Department of State to deny visas to Chinese officials involved in restricting access to Tibet for U.S. officials and journalists, etc. Could you speak to that a bit and give us an idea of whether or not, from your perspective, it has achieved the objective it was meant to achieve? Is it an effective tool and something that we, perhaps, should be considering?

4:05 p.m.

Sikyong, President, Central Tibetan Administration

Dr. Lobsang Sangay

Yes, Tibet was the first case. When Tibet was occupied and human rights violations took place, many people, many leaders, thought they could keep quiet in Tibet and make deals with the Chinese government. Later they realized that what happened in Tibet was now happening in Xinjiang, with almost a million in detention. You know, the party secretary of Tibet Autonomous Region was sent to Xinjiang to implement what he did in Tibet. The architect of the situation in Tibet and Xinjiang is the same.

Similarly, yes, the Reciprocal Access to Tibet Act was passed by Congress. It essentially says that for scholars, journalists or diplomats.... A lot of tourists, even, come from China to America, and from Tibet, so.... But Chinese embassies and consulates don't give visas for Canadian researchers, Canadian students, even Canadian tourists and Canadian diplomats to go to Tibet. This reciprocal access act simply says, look, if you want to come to Canada, we welcome you, but you must give similar access to Canadians to go to Tibet. If you don't do that, this is a basic violation of human rights.

As well, if there are Chinese officials who violate human rights, who torture Tibetans, who act with impunity, and who think they can get away with it because no one will talk about it, then the American government is saying they will deny their visa to come to America. They have named some officials of East Turkistan who have violated the human rights of Uighur people.

That's what we are saying: Similar things should happen. For example, 2018 was a year of tourism between Canada and China. How many Chinese came to Canada? But how many Tibetans came from Tibet to Canada? It was almost zero, because not even 1% of Tibetans in Tibet are allowed to have a passport. Even those few thousand with passports who went to India for pilgrimages had their passports confiscated when they returned to Tibet. One Tibetan blogger wrote that Tibetans have a better chance of going to heaven than getting a passport from the Chinese government.

The reciprocal access act simply says, yes, Canadians should be allowed to go to Tibet. Similarly, Tibetans should be allowed to come to Canada, and researchers especially. Freedom House says that Syria is the least free region in the whole world. The second least free region in the whole world is Tibet. How many people know about that? Not many, because journalists are not allowed to go to Tibet to investigate the situation.

That's why 50 UN independent experts and 30 UN special procedure mandate holders have written to the Chinese government: Allow them to go to Hong Kong; give them access to Tibet; they want to do research. But the Chinese government says no. Even visas are used to blackmail scholars to write their research papers favourable to the Chinese government and unfavourable to the Canadian government and Tibet.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

So from your perspective, it is the beginning of an effective tool.

4:05 p.m.

Sikyong, President, Central Tibetan Administration

Dr. Lobsang Sangay

Yes, definitely; it's a deterrence. When a Chinese official is about to violate or torture a Tibetan or a Uighur or a Hong Kongese, they will think twice and say, hey, if my son or daughter has to study in Canada or America, I had better not torture, because my visa could be denied. Canadian journalists who come and investigate this issue could also report on it.

Otherwise, they're acting with impunity. This is a small deterrence, but nonetheless a necessary one.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you very much, Ms. Alleslev and Dr. Sangay.

Mr. Fragiskatos, you have five minutes, please.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Dr. Sangay, for being here and for your advocacy on behalf of so many. It's an honour to engage with you this afternoon.

I have a question relating to the specifics of President Xi. Is the Tibetan experience markedly different under Mr. Xi than it was under previous Chinese leaders? Certainly, the Tibetan experience is one of enormous difficulty. Human rights suppression has defined what the Tibetan people have faced in the Tibet Autonomous Region for decades. We acknowledge that, and that is extremely clear, but have things taken a decidedly different path under President Xi, or it is simply a continuation of previous Chinese policy? Could you comment on that?

4:10 p.m.

Sikyong, President, Central Tibetan Administration

Dr. Lobsang Sangay

I think the situation of Tibetans has been bad, and it could get worse, but under Xi Jinping, in the last 10 years or so, it has gone from bad to worse. The repression is so severe, with the technological control and the manual control of the Tibetan people. Movement has been restricted, so in that way I think the human rights violations are very severe.

Before, Tibetans in Tibet could listen to news from outside, although illegally, but nowadays it's all shut down. For Tibetans to travel outside of Tibet, as I said, it's not allowed. For Tibetans to move from one place to another, it's not allowed. With the social credit system that is implemented in China, everything is photographed, everything is reduced to an algorithm. In Tibet, if your social credit is low, you go to jail. In China, you are denied a plane ticket or a train ticket, but in Tibet, you go to jail.

So, yes, the situation in Tibet has gone from bad to worse in the last decade or so.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you very much.

I want to ask another question, and it offers you an opportunity to clarify.

There are those in China, particularly within the Chinese leadership, who will say that if you look at the economic aid that has been contributed to the Tibet Autonomous Region, the investment is equivalent to about $100 billion since the annexation of Tibet in 1951. Chinese subsidies have funded substantial transportation and hydro power projects that have resulted in a local economic growth rate over the past two decades that exceeds the national average. I'm reading a briefing note prepared for us by the extraordinary analysts we have from the Library of Parliament. This is not their view; this is a view that, as I said before, some in the Chinese state have put forward. What would you say to that? It is something that is brought up by the Chinese leadership.

I'll run out of time and won't get a chance to ask the third question, so I'll put it here: What would you say to concerns that have been expressed by China about secessionist tendencies within the Tibetan movement?

Do you have a response to both of those questions? Again, I am very sympathetic to Tibetan calls for greater human rights, certainly, but I think this offers an opportunity for you to clarify these two points here for the committee and for Canadians watching.

4:10 p.m.

Sikyong, President, Central Tibetan Administration

Dr. Lobsang Sangay

If the Chinese government is so confident in what they're saying—subsidies, economic development and benefits for the Tibetan people—then let's have a referendum. Let Tibetans and Tibet choose a Tibetan leader or a Chinese leader. Let them vote. I'm absolutely certain, hands down, that Tibetans and Tibet would vote for a Tibetan leader.

Now, if you want to go into details, where are the subsidies going? So many Chinese migrants are moving to Tibet: 90% of businesses and enterprises in Lhasa, the capital city of Tibet, are controlled by Chinese people. So, all the hydro power you were mentioning is owned or run by Chinese companies and Chinese officials. How are Tibetans benefiting? All the minerals extracted from Tibet are befitting Chinese officials, not Tibetan people.

We were talking about the Panchen Lama. Even the 10th Panchen Lama, who was the vice-chairman of the National People's Congress, said, a few days before he died, that the Chinese government has benefited more after the occupation of Tibet than the Tibetan people. So, all those promises that the Tibetan people had benefited are proven wrong, as per the statement of Panchen Lama, who was the vice-chairman of the National People's Congress.

Clearly, they talk about those things, subsidies and all, but most of them go to the Chinese migrants who moved to Tibet to own businesses.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you very much.

Mr. Williamson, you have five minutes.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Sangay, I want to thank you very, very much for being here today. I have to say that you have a very impressive resumé, with your work in Asia as well as your studies in the United States and elsewhere, and of course your election as well.

I want to go back to something you mentioned earlier about China's growing role in the United Nations. You touched on its infiltration of certain very key spots. One, of course, is its ability now to oversee some of the reporters and the investigating on the human rights file. How do you think this will impact Tibet and the hearing that Tibet has received both at the United Nations and in publications around the world?

4:15 p.m.

Sikyong, President, Central Tibetan Administration

Dr. Lobsang Sangay

Yes, if you investigate the United Nations and different agencies of the United Nations, you will see a lot of Chinese personnel in key positions. If Tibetans want to move a resolution, let's say, at the Human Rights Council, it's extremely difficult. If you want to register a Tibetan NGO at the United Nations, it's not allowed. I've been to country after country where....

For example, when I first visited Australia, the talk was whether or not the then foreign minister of Australia would meet with me. The next time I went there, he had become a consultant for the Chinese government. When I went to Norway, the key person who discouraged the meeting between the Dalai Lama and the Norwegian leadership was then the foreign minister of Norway. The next time I went there, I found out he had become the president of the World Economic Forum. How did he get there?

I've been to so many countries where minister after minister has been brainwashed or pressured or co-opted by the Chinese government. Take the coronavirus pandemic. Why was the WHO president in China, shaking hands with Xi Jinping when the reports were delayed? According to one report, 95% of the pandemic could have been prevented had the Chinese government informed the international community three weeks prior to or ahead of what the Chinese government did later.

They are masters of co-opting leadership at every level. I think if you check YouTube, you will see a group of children wearing traditional dresses singing a song in praise of the one belt, one road initiative. You realize that this is the youth leadership forum of, I think, UNICEF. The song they are singing is a rip-off of a Coca-Cola advertisement from the 1980s. How can you have youth leadership training by a UN agency where they're singing a song in praise of the one belt, one road initiative of the Chinese government? Mainly, it's because a key Chinese official was in charge of the leadership training.

The Chinese influence is everywhere.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Yes. We see that elite capture here. I know there's pressure afoot to have government officials who have worked on the China file to have a cooling-off period so they cannot immediately go to work for the Chinese regime once they leave government service, whether they are politicians or public servants.

I think I have about a minute left here. Could you talk to me a little bit about what life is like on the ground in Tibet in terms of Tibetans getting news and transmitting that news? I know there's a problem all over China, where the state controls news outlets, but your people are folks who are looking for information and to get the word out. Do they get that information in Tibet? Can they share it, or does the state really close things off there as well?

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

You have about 20 seconds, please.

August 6th, 2020 / 4:15 p.m.

Sikyong, President, Central Tibetan Administration

Dr. Lobsang Sangay

Okay.

It's very difficult. If there's a small protest in one village or town, the whole Internet is shut down. There is very repressive technological control. Having said that, there's mouth-to-mouth. When relatives talk to each other, they have to talk in code language. That's how they pass information. Otherwise, technologically and manually, the Tibetan Plateau and the Tibetan people are repressed and absolutely controlled.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you very much, Mr. Williamson.

Now we have Ms. Zann for five minutes.

I'm not hearing Ms. Zann, so, if members don't have a problem with this, I'm going to go on for a moment to Mr. Bergeron, and then I'll return to Ms. Zann. Maybe she's having a technical problem, and we'll give her the opportunity if she reappears.

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm sorry that we still have this mute issue, which we're trying to resolve.

Anyway, I'll spare Mr. Sangay the details of all the technical issues that we encounter from time to time.

I'm listening to Mr. Sangay's answers to the various questions. In particular, regarding his answers to my questions about the situation in Hong Kong, the whole thing seems a little hopeless.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to come back to the question that I asked him.

How can there be any hope of reaching an agreement with the Government of the People's Republic of China that satisfies the Tibetan authorities?

4:20 p.m.

Sikyong, President, Central Tibetan Administration

Dr. Lobsang Sangay

I'm Buddhist, and as a human being one should always remain hopeful. Things change all the time. Nelson Mandela was in prison for 27 years, eight years in solitary confinement, but he was released and he has restored democracy in South Africa. In Northern Ireland, people of the same faith were killing each other for so long, but the Good Friday Agreement was signed. The Berlin Wall came down and the Soviet Union collapsed.

There are so many examples around the world that things do change. We must keep at it. We must keep speaking; every hearing, every motion, every statement counts.

Tibet was the first, and it was neglected by the whole world. The price that we're paying in Hong Kong and everywhere, including in Canada, is because you refused to speak once and that's the price you are paying. Silence is complicit. We lost our country. The Tibetan people are repressed, but we are still hopeful because our civilization is based on Buddhism, which is 2,500 years old, and the Communist Party or communism is only 100 years old, so comparatively we are very mature and old and senior to the Communist Party of China. Communism has come and will be gone, and Buddhism and the Tibetan civilization will prevail. The Tibetan Plateau will prevail, and democracy and the human rights of the people of Hong Kong will be restored, so we must keep at it.

That's why I'm here, after midnight, because this is a struggle. That's why the term “struggle” is very important. It is a struggle. Every minute, every day, it's a struggle, but one should always remain hopeful and keep moving forward. We will get there. The truth always prevails.

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Thank you for your wise words.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

I'll now switch to English.

We'll go to Ms. Zann, whom I now see on the screen. Hopefully she's there.

Ms. Zann, you have five minutes, please.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Lenore Zann Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Hello, can you hear me?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Please go ahead. We can hear you, yes.

I think she's having difficulty with her connection. I see that her image is frozen.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Lenore Zann Liberal Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Hello, can you hear me?