Canada-China Relations Committee on Aug. 6th, 2020

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I'm glad to hear that.

In regard to vulnerability, you mentioned activities that are happening on Canadian campuses. Can you give an example, please?

[David Mulroney]

I mentioned a case at McMaster University in Hamilton, where a Chinese student group was galvanized to block a speech by a Uighur human rights activist. I think that group has since delisted or lost its status at McMaster.

At the University of Toronto's Scarborough campus, a very promising young student politician of Tibetan origin was harassed by student groups on campus. My concern there is both the harassment itself, which is unacceptable, and, if we look at how China operates and how something called the United Front operates, how activating students is part of that process.

We should be cracking down on that. We should be cracking down on the consulate, for example, as that's way beyond anything in its mandate, and our security services should be looking at this kind of interference and intimidation of people in Canada.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Okay. You said “intimidation” and, specifically, that the interference was done by the Chinese government, by consulate staff. Is that what you're saying?

[David Mulroney]

No, I'm saying that it was done by students, but there were kind of references to the consulate, and this is something that consulates do. They run student groups. They have education people who look at Chinese students. I'd be looking at that as a possibility. I have no proof that this happened, but I wouldn't be surprised.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Sure.

Now, there's a lot of investment in our universities in order to create new innovations and intellectual property, etc. I have heard from some universities that have shown concerns about partnering with particular enterprises due to national security concerns. Do you think this is an area—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Albas, I'm terribly sorry. I wasn't watching the clock closely enough. You're just past the five-minute time. We have to move on.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Could he have just 30 seconds to respond?

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

The problem is that we're over your time. As you and all the members know, we have limits for each member. There may be an opportunity for him to respond as we go on, although there isn't much longer in the meeting.

I will go to Ms. Yip, as I'm required to do.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for coming today.

Canada has expressed deep concern regarding the national security law in Hong Kong. Why did China act now to impose a national security law on Hong Kong, especially during this pandemic time? What would be the implications for China's domestic and foreign policy?

[David Mulroney]

I think you may have answered your own question, in the sense that China took this opportunity because the world is so preoccupied with the pandemic. However, there is some history here. In 2003, they tried to introduce something that was actually, if anything, maybe even a little milder than what we're seeing now. Protests in the streets discouraged the Hong Kong administration from proceeding with that. Many years have passed since then.

My own reading is that last year Beijing lost faith in the Lam administration in Hong Kong and decided they would simply interfere in the system. One thing to remember is that, as I talked about, China would attack Taiwan if they felt their interests were imperiled. As valuable as Hong Kong is to them, they will quite happily see Hong Kong's future blighted to make sure they maintain control over Hong Kong. This is precisely what we're seeing.

What's serious here is that we're seeing the Chinese legal system penetrate the barrier that had kept Hong Kong separate—the notion that people who are accused of national security violations, which are very broad and ambiguous, could in fact be renditioned to China for trial.

So Canada was wise, I think, to cancel extradition. It's really, as I say, the death knell for one country, two systems.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

You just mentioned that China felt that Hong Kong was failing, or they felt disappointed. What did you mean by that? Could you elaborate?

[David Mulroney]

They felt that the Hong Kong administration was losing control to democratic forces and was being out-thought by very creative and very courageous young democracy advocates, whose success showed in local district elections just a few months later. The flames of democracy were really beginning to be kindled by this. That, of course, is the last thing China wants. They're doing everything they can to extinguish that.

There was a lot of hope at the time, in 1997, that China would be willing to see developments in Hong Kong and the growing autonomy of Hong Kong institutions. They've completely abandoned that.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What more can the government do to respond to this new security law?

[David Mulroney]

Unfortunately, I think it's very late in the day for us to be asking that question. We've had two decades of China's steady strangulation of Hong Kong in which we should have responded. Now, when the python has almost consumed its prey, it's very late for us. I think cancelling extradition is the right thing to do, and creating a fast track for immigration to Canada, but none of this saves Hong Kong.

The one area where I have hope, however, is that, as I've indicated, I'm tremendously impressed by the young people who were part of the protests. I've met some of them. They're creative. They're adaptive. They're thoughtful. Unfortunately, I think they're going to have to carry out a lot of that at some distance, because it's no longer safe for them to return to Hong Kong.

I also think we should be prepared to use Magnitsky legislation to block, for example, access to Canada for people who have clearly rolled back democratic rights in Hong Kong.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Other than the Magnitsky sanctions, are there other steps that Canada could take?

[David Mulroney]

I think continuing to speak out about it is important. But as I said, the most important thing for us now is probably to take the lesson of what inaction does and apply it to the next campaign, which will be Taiwan.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

How concerned should we be about the well-being of the 300,000 Canadians in Hong Kong? What can we do for them?

[David Mulroney]

Their status has changed. They are now living in a place that is much more like a Chinese city. I think we need to....

I notice that we have upgraded our travel advisory and talked about the dangers of arbitrary arrest and detention. You have travel advisories, but you also have [Technical difficulty—Editor]. They have to start thinking about whether it's the safest place for them to be.

The reality is that if it were a real crisis, it would be hard for us to support 300,000 people in that crisis.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Ms. Yip.

We have time for Mr. Bergeron and Mr. Harris.

Mr. Bergeron, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll try to use them as wisely as possible.

Thank you, Mr. Mulroney, for your answer regarding the sanctions resulting from the Sergei Magnitsky law. You answered one of the questions that I wanted to ask.

Here are two quick questions. We know that the Chinese are using health arguments as a roundabout way to implement sanctions against countries, including Canada. Given that the safety of Chinese products is far inferior to the safety of Canadian products, could we use the same argument to respond immediately to Chinese sanctions?

We also know the importance of supply chains for Canadian industries in China, given the low production costs in that country. How would we start the transition process? We saw the need for this transition during the coronavirus crisis.

How can we implement a transition plan for the supply chains of Canadian companies?

[David Mulroney]

The first thing is that a lot of countries are having the same discussion, and the smartest and best way would be to work with allies.

The other thing is.... As I said, we've had a year and a half in which things have slowed down. The relationship is not where it was. I was surprised that we sent our Minister of Small Business, who is now our trade minister, on a trade mission and she went to Beijing. She should have gone on to other markets in the region to signal our interest in diversifying and in restoring economic partnerships that we've allowed to languish.

The main thing is that we have to get at it, start talking to our allies and start focusing on very practical measures we can take.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Mr. Chair, regarding the safety issue and the health arguments—

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Bergeron, you have 20 seconds left.

Mr. Mulroney, would you like to briefly respond to that part?

[David Mulroney]

What was the part?