Evidence of meeting #23 for Canada-China Relations in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Carolyn Bartholomew  Chairman, United States-China Economic and Security Review Commission
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Marie-France Lafleur
Michel Juneau-Katsuya  Expert in National Security and Intelligence, As an Individual
Anne-Marie Brady  Professor, University of Canterbury, As an Individual
Steve Waterhouse  Captain (ret'd), Former Information Systems Security Officer, Department of National Defence and Cybersecurity Specialist, As an Individual
Christian Leuprecht  Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

9:25 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

While all eyes are on China, isn't there a risk that Russia will make a move without us noticing?

We now realize that troops are stationed on the border with Ukraine. Should we continue to monitor Russia closely?

9:25 p.m.

Captain (ret'd), Former Information Systems Security Officer, Department of National Defence and Cybersecurity Specialist, As an Individual

Steve Waterhouse

Yes. We should also keep a close eye on North Korea, Iran and international organized crime.

9:25 p.m.

Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Christian Leuprecht

That's why I was very disappointed when Mr. Biden announced sanctions against Russia in relation to SolarWinds and Canada did not. In Canada, at least 100 companies have also been affected. President Biden pointed out that some of the behaviour was unacceptable. I think that Canada needs to be a better ally.

9:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you.

9:25 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Thank you.

9:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

We will go on now to Mr. Harris for two minutes and 30 seconds.

9:25 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Chair, I have a question for either witness.

We've heard from Mr. Juneau-Katsuya that CSIS spends over half its time dealing with the foreign influence of China. We know that the numbers for Chinese diplomats in Canada are huge compared even to those from the United States.

Is there a reason that Canada is particularly subject to Chinese attempts such as this? Is it because of our vulnerabilities or is it because we pose a fairly rich target for Chinese interests, whether it be intellectual property such as Nortel, scientific advancement or access to minerals and research? What is it? Is there an answer to that question, or are we just part of their influence around the world?

9:25 p.m.

Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Christian Leuprecht

We're a diverse society. We're a highly digitized and highly technological society. We're all the things you listed, but look, here's the contrast. Last week Christopher Wray, the director of the FBI, testified before Congress. He indicated that the FBI opens a new investigation of China every 10 hours. There are about 32.5 million businesses in the U.S. and there are 2,000 active investigations going on. By comparison, in Canada we have about 1.23 million businesses. That number would suggest that statistically we should have 75 open investigations and one new case every month. How many cases, Mr. Harris, do we actually have?

We need a federal police force that can deliver on federal priorities. We need to have a federal government that is committed to making sure we have a force that doesn't spend 85% of its time and resources doing contract policing. In the 21st century, it is not acceptable that we have a federal force that cannot deliver on federal priorities.

9:25 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Mr. Waterhouse, would you comment?

9:25 p.m.

Captain (ret'd), Former Information Systems Security Officer, Department of National Defence and Cybersecurity Specialist, As an Individual

Steve Waterhouse

I second the motion. Federal resources should tackle federal problems so that we can then evolve into a better country. Yes.

9:25 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

What's China's interest here? Is it because we're vulnerable or because we're rich?

9:25 p.m.

Captain (ret'd), Former Information Systems Security Officer, Department of National Defence and Cybersecurity Specialist, As an Individual

Steve Waterhouse

Because we have weak laws, they can bribe. As Mr. Juneau-Katsuya said, they can invest into the political system and then work their way around and even modify laws to their advantage. Yes, we are a commodity to them.

9:25 p.m.

Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Christian Leuprecht

It's markets of opportunity.

Look, the U.S., Australia and U.K. are much harder targets than Canada because of the sort of legal ecosystem and the homeopathic security intelligence system that we have—

9:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

We have only five minutes left. I suggest that we divide the time between Mr. Paul-Hus and Mr. Dubourg.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

9:25 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Mr. Leuprecht, on Monday you said that Canada was the only major democracy that didn't have its own foreign intelligence service, and that it was therefore lagging behind the other G7 countries.

Did this harm Canada, at the beginning of the pandemic, in relation to China?

9:25 p.m.

Professor, Department of Political Science, Royal Military College of Canada, As an Individual

Dr. Christian Leuprecht

Absolutely.

Look at the countries that were in a very good position in terms of their intelligence services, including Taiwan, Australia and even Vietnam. They responded very quickly, not only because of their intelligence services, but also because of their assessment capabilities.

They have a strategic assessment capability. The U.S., Australia and the U.K. each have a strategic assessment capability. In Canada we don't have one. We don't have the capacity to

provide strategic advice and information to our government. We don't have a biosafety plan either. We have spent

roughly $400 billion,

and an intelligence service would cost us about $500 million a year.

It's a premium of one-tenth of one per cent of what we spend on the pandemic. I think that's a premium worth paying.

9:30 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Thank you. That's very informative.

Mr. Waterhouse, the National Security Act, 2017, is up for review in 2022.

What changes should we make to the act with regard to cybersecurity?

9:30 p.m.

Captain (ret'd), Former Information Systems Security Officer, Department of National Defence and Cybersecurity Specialist, As an Individual

Steve Waterhouse

First, you must acknowledge that this issue affects all departments and all areas of society and that there must be an active, not passive, education program.

Right now, the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security is providing some great information. The information is available on a website, but it isn't actively being shared in the field. Even information technology professionals don't know that the information exists yet. I've had to speak to clients and institutions about this.

The more actively the government shares this knowledge, the more directly it will help the public.

9:30 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Thank you.

9:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

Mr. Dubourg, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

9:30 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, Mr. Leuprecht and Mr. Waterhouse. Thank you for contributing to our study.

First, Mr. Leuprecht, I'm pleased to hear from you. I think that this is one of the first times that a witness is talking about the vulnerability of China, for example, and about how to adapt, even though you're saying that we must adjust certain federal policy priorities.

Mr. Waterhouse, at the start of your presentation, when you were talking about metros, pipelines and all that, I was a little concerned.

As a former information systems officer, do you find that, in 2021, Canada's security infrastructure has declined?

9:30 p.m.

Captain (ret'd), Former Information Systems Security Officer, Department of National Defence and Cybersecurity Specialist, As an Individual

Steve Waterhouse

The issue isn't that the infrastructure has declined, but that it's a victim of failing technology.

As I said earlier, there's very little quality control in computer programming. We rely on the fact that corrective measures will be taken in the future to address programming flaws.

The programming of several key applications for our society isn't up to date. This makes our society quite fragile.

9:30 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC

The National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians is looking at the infrastructure issue and making recommendations.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you see this as a good thing?

9:30 p.m.

Captain (ret'd), Former Information Systems Security Officer, Department of National Defence and Cybersecurity Specialist, As an Individual

Steve Waterhouse

I don't see this as a good thing. Again, it's all talk and no action.

The committee members should go out into the field and talk to the workers who maintain the equipment. This would give them the chance to understand that all the bureaucratic complexities are causing a number of issues and would go a long way towards helping them resolve the situation.

9:30 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuel Dubourg Liberal Bourassa, QC

I sat on that committee for a year and a half. We met with all the senior officials from CSIS, the RCMP and the Communications Security Establishment.