Canada-China Relations Committee on May 31st, 2021

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Wong, I believe you listened to the previous panel and heard me talk about collecting statistics.

I'd like your opinion on the importance of having a one-stop shop to receive complaints, even if they are not under federal jurisdiction. It would be nice to at least have something structured so that we can keep statistics and the public understands the extent of the phenomenon.

[Cherie Wong]

Absolutely. One of the proposed recommendations we have is a public commission on foreign influence paired with the transparency scheme so that it would act as a registry body for foreign actors to sign up to ensure that their activities are recorded here in Canada, but that commission could also double as a community support.

Community groups like ours that have faced extensive violence from the CCP and their affiliates would have a place to report these issues and ensure that they are kept on record, despite these not being criminal offences. That kind of data would help inform Canada to make better decisions that improve our national security.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Matthews, I have a question for you. The Chinese Communist Party is successfully curtailing freedom of speech here, especially for Tibetan, Hong Kong and Uyghur nationals.

Are you concerned that this curtailing of freedom of expression will extend to the average person in Canada and that it will involve more and more subjects?

[Kyle Matthews]

I saw a finger being held up there, so I'm not sure whether I'm allowed to talk or not.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

It means we have one minute.

[Kyle Matthews]

One minute?

Listen, this is playing out on the Internet across the globe, but today I read that the Jamestown Foundation shows that the Chinese government has two million paid Internet commentators and 20 million part-time volunteers to engage in Internet trolling. When people express something online—or even make a comment—in a Canadian Internet sphere, there are people swarming them, trying to stop them from speaking. The harassment becomes so bad that they just no longer comment on it.

It is, then, about freedom of expression. You can weaponize social media—bots and real people—to silence others. This is also a big problem, and there are discussions about why the Chinese authorities get to use social media platforms that their own citizens aren't allowed to use.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much, Ms. Normandin.

Now, we'll go to Ms. Kwan for six minutes, please.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and the witnesses.

My first question is for Ms. Wong. I'm very sorry, first off, to hear about your experiences of threats that you've encountered both to you yourself and to your family.

We have a situation similar to that in Vancouver, in the sense that a concerned group came out to criticize and call for the resignation of a former judge, who happened to be an adviser to the premier, a genocide denier for the Uyghur people.

After that group came out and spoke publicly, one of the members received death threats; in fact, at least two death threats. They reported this to the RCMP, and there seemed to be very little follow-up with respect to it. The RCMP, of course, did not deem the threats to be of a sufficient level to require follow-up, even though the group wanted the RCMP to look further into the background of the person who made at least two threats. That request was never responded to.

I wonder, then, Ms. Wong, what your thoughts are about that. What role should the federal government play, if any, in those situations? Those who are elected will say, don't talk to me; go talk to the RCMP. The RCMP, though, is not following up.

What should be done?

[Cherie Wong]

We need strong advocacy for dissidents who are facing these difficult situations. I can speak from experience: the individuals who are facing these threats have never felt more alone. We have nowhere to go. We are talking to you today, but tomorrow we would be talking to the RCMP and asking and begging for help and be denied it.

We need a federal strategy on foreign influence, because harassment is only one corner of this massive iceberg. It's a threat that you face at work: being overlooked for a promotion because you didn't go to this pro-Asian protest. It's death threats that are overlooked and deemed irrelevant.

The community is hurting, and I just hope the government might look at the recommendations that not just I myself and my organization are putting forward but also the various witnesses who came before you who survive this violence. We need your support and we need it now. We can't any longer wait until someone really gets hurt.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

The House of Commons, as you know, voted on the motion to declare that there is genocide taking place of the Uighurs in China. A number of MPs refrained from voting. In particular, I note that some of my colleagues from the Chinese-Canadian community did not vote for this.

I wonder what your thoughts are on that? Do you think that there are any potential implications from the pressure they may feel from the Chinese government?

[Cherie Wong]

I'll preface this answer by saying that this happens to every single party. There is not a single party not vulnerable to the CCP's influence; every single party is. From my report, I can tell you that we have recorded various incidents of political influence, at the federal, provincial and municipal levels down to the school board level.

When I see that many of your colleagues did not vote in favour of denouncing of the Uighur genocide, I see it as some form of pressure that they have felt. It may be through political donations that they would receive in a campaign period; it may be from volunteers that the United Front activities are able to mobilize.

It also may be just that they have a job lined up after their career as an MP and they don't want to piss off the investor. There is a range of answers to your question, but it is a trend that we have observed, not only in the House of Commons but also in the Senate.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

What would your proposed action be to address those kinds of pressures on elected officials?

[Cherie Wong]

I believe we need a federal policy in a centralized place to address all forms of foreign influence. These actors are often the same and coming from the same organizations or the same network. A foreign-influence transparency scheme and a public commission paired with it would be able to enforce these registrations. If an individual organization or an actor is associated with a foreign state, they need to register. If they don't register, there should be enforceable and punishable offences—maybe a fine, maybe revoking their charitable status.

These kinds of issues cannot be buried under bureaucracy. Instead, we need to bring them to the light. Everyone in Canada should know who is doing these kinds of influence operations against their political officials.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Matthews, do you have anything else to add to what Ms. Wong has said?

[Kyle Matthews]

Yes, I think we need to see a serious investment by Canada. We've seen some interesting money coming to Heritage Canada to deal with online disinformation, misinformation and to build citizens' capacity. What we're dealing with here is something different. We don't have any program that's helping any Canadian NGOs, any think tanks, or anyone to really look into this, dig deep and try to map out who's doing what. I would point that out. Public Safety Canada had something for counterterrorism, to help people study and understand it and to be action-oriented. We're not seeing anything yet. Hopefully that might come about.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Matthews.

Thank you, Ms. Kwan.

We'll now go on to the second round, starting with Mr. Chiu for five minutes, please.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for coming.

My first question is for Ms. Wong. Ms. Wong, your organization, the Alliance Canada Hong Kong, had published a report, “In Plain Sight: Beijing's unrestricted network of foreign influence in Canada”. I wonder if you could table a copy for the committee's record.

[Cherie Wong]

It has been tabled. It's just waiting for translation.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Wonderful. Thank you.

In the section named “Information & Narrative Discursion Warfare”, which is around page 13, your organization covers the diaspora media, the ethnic Chinese media, in Canada.

I happen to understand that June 4 is coming, the anniversary of what happened 32 years ago, in 1989. A few years ago in Vancouver, one of the two radio stations broadcasting in Cantonese and Mandarin started to refuse promotion activities for commemorating June 4. For example, last year's newspapers have turned down advertisement countering support for Hong Kong's national security law. What's your view on that?

Your report had only one very small section on it. Have you heard about that, and what does your organization think? Perhaps after you answer, Mr. Williams can respond too.

[Cherie Wong]

Yes, thank you for the question.

Yes, unfortunately, it was a very small blurb, but there are a lot of ways that the information and narrative discursion warfare is being conducted here in Canada and other western liberal democracies.

To answer your question, I notice the same kinds of issues, where the Chinese language media here in Canada—whether in Cantonese or Mandarin—have been refraining from covering certain topics. It is part of the larger warfare against Canadian media, not only through harassment and intimidation of certain journalists who carry out these stories, but also systemically buying up Chinese ethnic media as a way to silence the information that is going out to the community.

It is a systemic problem. It's not only for June 4, but it is an ongoing concern of the community to see that the only access we have to Chinese language media is now in danger because it has been bought up by CCP affiliates.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Matthews.

[Kyle Matthews]

I can just make general comments about this. I think there needs to be a lot of attention to what's happening in minority-language media in Canada. It falls off the radar. Most people who are native English or French speakers aren't following it, so we really need to have attention and focus on that to see what's going on, to see the ownership and what global narratives are trying to be framed or controlled. I think there's some work starting to be done by Heritage Canada on this, but I haven't seen enough besides by just a few university researchers.

[Kenny Chiu, Conservative, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

In your view, is this CCP propaganda running in Chinese communities in Canada effective? What effects would prolonged exposure to CCP propaganda have on Chinese communities or Canadians in general?

[Kyle Matthews]

Are you asking me that question?