Evidence of meeting #7 for Canada-China Relations in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was comes.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number seven of the Special Committee on Canada-China Relations. Pursuant to the motion adopted on Wednesday, September 23, 2020, the committee is meeting on its study of Canada-China relations.

Today's meeting is in a hybrid format. The meeting is also televised and will be available on the House of Commons website.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are participating by video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself.

Let me remind you that all comments from members of the committee and from witnesses must be addressed through the chair.

I would ask you to speak slowly and clearly.

When you're not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

I'd now like to welcome the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Honourable François-Philippe Champagne, along with Marta Morgan, deputy minister; and Weldon Epp, director general, north Asia and Oceania bureau.

Thank you all.

Thank you very much for joining us.

I now invite the minister to make his opening statement.

Mr. Minister, the floor is yours.

November 23rd, 2020 / 6:35 p.m.

Saint-Maurice—Champlain Québec

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne LiberalMinister of Foreign Affairs

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Honourable members and colleagues, it is a great pleasure for me to join you this evening. Thank you for inviting me to testify before you today.

The work that you are doing here is important, because the relationship between Canada and China is important for Canadians.

I would first like to thank the officials who are with me today. Thank you for your time and thank you, also, for serving Canada. I also want to take a moment to thank Ambassador Barton and our team in the different missions in China and our diplomats in China who did extraordinary work, as I recall, in the first phase of their repatriation from Wuhan.

Mr. Chair and honourable members, thank you for the invitation to appear in front of you today. The work you do, as I was saying, is crucial because the relationship between Canada and China is important to all Canadians. The countries that make up the Indo-Pacific region are drivers of economic prosperity for Canada and for the world.

By some estimates, just 10 years from now, Asia will account for roughly 60% of the world's economic growth. The bilateral and multilateral relationships we foster and the region's stability create jobs, open up markets, connect communities and support Canadian families here at home. As the world's second-largest economy and home to 1.4 billion people, China is a key actor in the region and beyond.

This year marks 50 years of diplomatic relations between Canada and China. Fifty years later, I don't think anyone would say this is an easy relationship. Canadians Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor have now been arbitrarily detained for almost two years.

Our relationship with China is a complex and difficult one, not just for Canada, but for democracies around the world. China is changing rapidly before our eyes.

We recognize China's growing influence on the world stage as a global hub for manufacturing, trade and lending, and the single-largest trading nation in the world. It is the first trading partner for an astonishing 124 countries. It is the first trading partner in Africa, second in Latin America, and it is also an important trading partner for Canada, for both exports and imports. Bilateral trade in goods and services between Canada and China has increased eightfold over the last 20 years.

In addition, China can be a key player on the world stage in the fight against climate change, COVID-19, or to ensure the stability of financial markets and global economic development.

With significant assistance funding in Africa and Latin America, it gives China growing clout in the developing world. As an example, as part of its belt and road initiative, China has signed co-operation agreements with 138 countries to build infrastructure that will connect it to developing countries. China's banks have already provided loans worth over $461 billion, raising many concerns over debt sustainability, transparency and international standards on labour and the environment.

China's ambition even reaches the Arctic region, where it aims to develop shipping lanes, calling it the polar silk road. This is a new reality that we need to take into account and thus engage with China with eyes wide open, as I have said on a number of occasions.

The China of 2020 is not the China of 2015, or even the China of 2018.

Its rise has brought with it troubling threats to human rights, to long-standing agreements of autonomy [Technical difficulty—Editor] and to the international institutions that underpin the rules-based order of which Canada is a steadfast promoter. We see a country and a leadership increasingly prepared to throw its weight around to advance its interest.

This includes the use of coercive diplomacy, like the arbitrary detention of Canadians Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. This, however, is not a sentiment unique to me or to Canada. Democracies around the world are rethinking their own relationship with China.

Multilateralism will be key to ensuring global stability and security in a world in which China is a powerful actor. That's why we are working with like-minded countries to defend the rules-based international order and ensure that China abides by its obligations under international human rights law. When dealing with China, we will be firmly guided by Canadian interests, our fundamental values and principles, including human rights, as well as by global rules and strategic partnerships.

Let me be clear. The safety and security of Canadians at home and abroad will always be at the heart of our approach.

Tactics such as coercive diplomacy, including arbitrary detention, are unacceptable in the conduct of state-to-state relations. This is something I have raised not just with our allies, but directly with my Chinese counterpart.

We do, and we will continue to, challenge China when human rights are violated, and we will always protect Canadians when it comes to our national security, compete with our innovative businesses and the abundant resources that allow us to do so, and co-operate on global challenges such as climate change, because there is no easy path forward without China.

More than 700 days have passed since then, and we remain deeply concerned by the arbitrary arrest and detention of Mr. Kovrig and Mr. Spavor, as well as the arbitrary sentencing of Mr. Schellenberg. We continue to call for the immediate release of Mr. Kovrig and Mr. Spavor and for clemency for Mr. Schellenberg, as we do for all Canadians facing the death penalty.

I know that all members of this committee, indeed all Canadians, are angered by the detention of Mr. Kovrig and Mr. Spavor and concerned for their well-being. I would also like to acknowledge the resilience demonstrated by their families and their support at every step of the way.

Finally, after many months, we recently secured on-site virtual consular access to Mr. Kovrig and Mr. Spavor. This is something I personally raised in a meeting with my counterpart, State Councilor Wang Yi, in Rome in August this year, and on which we worked tirelessly.

Since October, Ambassador Barton has on two occasions travelled to the prisons in which they are being held to lead virtual on-site visits to personally confirm the health and well-being of these two Canadians while they remain unjustly detained. This is a very important development and we continue to work very hard to secure their release.

Turning to Hong Kong, the imposition of the new national security law in Hong Kong has raised significant concerns about the future of Hong Kong’s independent judiciary, the future of human rights and freedoms in the special administrative region, the integrity of the “one country, two systems” framework, and Hong Kong’s role as a global hub.

On November 11, we condemned China’s removal of four democratically elected lawmakers from office in Hong Kong. It is an assault on Hong Kong’s freedoms under the Sino-British Joint Declaration.

Alongside our partners, we continue to call on Chinese authorities to uphold international human rights obligations. We have been at the forefront of the international response to the national security law, issuing—often at our urging—statements alongside Australia, the U.K., the United States, the G7 and the Five Eyes, at the Human Rights Council and, most recently, at the UN General Assembly’s third committee.

We were also the first to suspend our extradition treaty with Hong Kong, and we have announced a series of other measures, including export control measures and an update on travel advice for the region.

Last week, you heard from my colleague Minister Mendicino on the immigration measures we have put in place. Our response to both Hong Kong and China is one that crosses many departments and requires significant coordination.

As all of you, I am sure, I have been alarmed by the reports of gross human rights violations in Xinjiang. The violations target Uighurs and other Muslim minorities on the basis of their religion and ethnicity.

Publicly and privately, in multilateral and bilateral dialogues, we have called on the Chinese government to end the repression in Xinjiang. I have raised this directly with my Chinese counterpart, most recently in Rome this summer at a meeting called at my request. In September at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva, we raised concerns about the human rights situation in Xinjiang and Hong Kong. In October, we were one of 39 countries signing the third committee's declaration at the UN General Assembly in New York, which referenced Xinjiang. [Technical difficulty—Editor] for human rights.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

You appear to have a technical problem.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

In conclusion, our relationship with China is a complex one indeed. It is absolutely imperative that advanced democracies like Canada and our like-minded partners work together to protect the international rules that have ensured stability and prosperity for decades. It is a challenge we all share. No country will succeed alone. Our principal strategic approach to China goes beyond our bilateral relationship. It is, in fact, a global challenge. This is why we have been working with partners, especially when it comes to areas of fundamental disagreements with China.

I know, Mr. Chair, that some like to talk tough on China. To those who are seduced by this one-dimensional view, I say that while it is easy to be tough, let's continue to be smart. Let's not fall into the temptation of tough and irresponsible rhetoric that will generate no tangible results for Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, our farmers and entrepreneurs, and human rights victims and advocates. I think Canadians know this. They know we must be smart in our approach. We must be nimble. That is what is at stake here, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank you for your time and for the role you as a committee are playing in shaping the Canada-China relationship and informing Canadians about China. As we discuss this tonight, I invite you to take a broader and longer view on the Canada-China relationship. I am here to hear your ideas and engage in a constructive dialogue with you about one of the most important geostrategic issues of our time. It is a feature of an open and successful country that we can have these discussions.

I am happy to take your questions.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

We'll now start our first round of questions with Mr. Chong for six minutes.

Mr. Chong, go ahead, please.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Mr. Chair, thank you.

6:45 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

You have the floor, Mr. Bergeron.

6:45 p.m.

Bloc

Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC

Mr. Chair, we missed some of the minister's remarks. Without wishing to make him start his comments again, could we at least be assured that we will have a copy of those comments in French and English so that we can be fully aware of them, albeit unfortunately after the fact.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

Is that possible, Mr. Minister?

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Mr. Chair, I would like to do so, but I use a lot of personal notes. You know me, I rarely just read a speech. We will certainly find a way to add my comments into the file. If not, I can start my presentation again, if my colleague Mr. Bergeron so wishes.

I will defer to your decision, Mr. Chair.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Geoff Regan

I don't think that the members would want me to let you start again, certainly not Mr. Harris, who is in Newfoundland and Labrador. The session would finish very late if we went on too long.

If it is possible for you to add those notes to the file, we would appreciate it.

In that case, we will go to Mr. Chong for six minutes.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing and for your opening remarks.

Minister, the government has indicated for some time that a new framework on China is coming this fall, which ends on December 21. Can you tell us exactly when the new framework will be released?

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

What I said is that the situation in China is evolving—China of 2020 is not China of 2016—and that our foreign policy needs to evolve with an evolving China.

What I said is that our policy will be based on three key principles. It will be based on Canadian interests; it will be based on values and principles that include human rights; and it will be based on rules and partnerships. That's what we have been putting already in motion, Mr. Chair, because the situation—

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you, Minister, for that, but do you have any time frame for us in the next four weeks?

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Mr. Chair, we will be coming and, as I am doing tonight, I will be explaining to Canadians all along our policy, which is evolving as the situation in China is evolving.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you.

I don't have a lot of time, and I have a number of questions.

Minister, as you know, the House adopted a motion calling on the government to make a decision on Huawei and to develop a robust plan to counter China's influence operations here in Canada by December 18. While the motion is not binding in a statutory sense of the word, it is binding if Canada is to uphold democratic norms. Our democratic norms say that the government must respect the will of the House of Commons, and we can all see what happens when these democratic norms aren't respected, such as what is going on south of the border.

In that context, what assurances can you give this committee that the government will deliver both a decision on Huawei and a robust plan to counter China's influence operations by Friday, December 18?

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Mr. Chair, as my honourable colleague will remember, we even proposed an amendment during the debate because we agree with the principle, but there was an issue about delay. I think Canadians who are watching tonight will understand that we cannot have the opposition fix an arbitrary delay. National security should guide our decision when it comes to 5G.

What I said when it comes to foreign interference is that we take that very, very seriously, that I'm working with the Minister of Public Safety and that we have measures in place, and we're always looking at enhancing the measures that we have. Any Canadians who would be subject to any form of interference should immediately report them to the local police force so that they can be properly investigated and we can act upon them.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Thank you for that, Minister.

Minister, your mandate letter of a year ago mandated you to introduce enhanced Magnitsky sanctions legislation that would include the seizure of assets to be used to help victims. Do you still plan on introducing that legislation in this Parliament?

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I'd like to quote the member, Mr. Chair, because as my honourable colleague once said, the way that I see the Magnitsky sanction needs to be imposed, or for that matter any sanctions that need to be imposed, is to work with a core group of countries to have maximum impact. I think that's something that I've even read the member said, that the smart way to do that is to go along with a core group of countries to have maximum effect, and that's certainly what I believe.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

My question was this. Your mandate letter asked you to introduce enhanced legislation in the House of Commons to strengthen the legislative framework. Do you still plan on doing that? Do you plan on introducing new legislation on enhanced Magnitsky sanctions?

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Mr. Chair, I missed part of the question, but I think I understand enough to be able to provide elements of response to my honourable colleague.

As I said, Mr. Chair, we have on the books a number of tools in our tool box to impose sanctions. I'm always looking at ways that these sanctions could be deployed, but my firm belief is that the smart way to impose sanctions is with a core group of countries to have maximum impact, as we've done, for example, in the case of Belarus.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Minister, Michael Wernick, former Clerk of the Privy Council, suggested last week that the Canadian government consider organizing a boycott of the 2022 Beijing Winter Olympics. As the government comes forward with its new framework on China, will the consideration of a boycott be part of the government's new framework?

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I think when it comes to sports and politics, Mr. Chair, one has to be careful. That's a decision for the Canadian Olympic Committee to make. Certainly, we will look to see what their decision is when it comes to the Olympics in Beijing.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Chong Conservative Wellington—Halton Hills, ON

Minister, Ambassador Rae, last week at the United Nations, said that the United Nations Human Rights Council should investigate China for gross human rights violations and possible genocide of the Uighur people. Has your government taken any specific action to initiate this investigation at the United Nations?