Canadian Heritage Committee on April 3rd, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Coderre.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I think we've said all there is to say on the subject. My colleagues' comments reassure me that I was right from the start. The fact that we are just now beginning to define what we should be examining is proof of just how long this process might take.

WIth all due respect to my colleague Mr. Abbott, for all of these reasons, including the ones I mentioned at the outset, and out of respect for yesterday's motion, I think we are ready to put this matter to a vote. Unfortunately for Mr. Abbott, I will be voting against the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Abbott, perhaps you'd like to speak to that, and then we'll call the vote.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

I'd be happy to.

I made notes on a number of issues that were raised in debate. For example, I think Mr. Chong's intervention with respect to the Peace Tower was absolutely correct. God forbid we end up in a situation like that, but that could happen. You could also have a possible expansion of the reasons for half-masting, every one of them legitimate. I'm not questioning the legitimacy of the events that took place that have led to the half-masting practices currently listed for the Peace Tower.

But if I take a look—I'm not being flippant here, I'm being quite serious—at a calendar that has been approved by Parliament, at the number of days there are, the number of absolutely worthy, worthwhile events or occasions that have to be recognized, we can get an idea of where the whole issue of the half-masting of the Peace Tower flag could possibly end up, without proper protocol and without proper policy.

But I just want to clearly enunciate for the opposition members that what is happening here is that because this issue is so serious to any government—be it the previous government or this government, it is a serious issue for any government—the current government asked experts to come up with a complete report, which is reflected in my motion, that the government has chosen to ask the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage to examine Canada's policy on half-masting the Canadian flag in relation to provincial, territorial, and international practices. So we're not just talking about the Peace Tower here; we're talking about heraldry in general.

So what the opposition members are going to be voting on is to say that it is up to the current government to go through the report, such as it is, that has been presented to it and to choose what it is going to choose. This committee is effectively saying that we care little what the government is doing. The government wants to give the responsibility to the committee, and the committee is saying we'd just as soon not bother.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Now you're partisaning and politicking. I can play that too.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Okay.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I was okay from the beginning. Don't try that.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Okay, I won't go there. All I'm saying is that it is.... How can I say it without being partisan?

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

You're the one who lowered the flag for Gerald Ford. Stephen Harper did it. I can play politics, I can have fun, but it's not the issue. The issue is that if you want to open the can of worms, let's do it. We said no. That's it. That's not partisan.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I'm going to bring this discussion to a close with Mr. Fast. Mr. Fast wanted to make a very short comment. Then we'll have a vote.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

On a point of order, I thought you ruled that Mr. Abbott was making his final comments today on the debate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

I forgot that Mr. Fast was on the list.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Mr. Abbott has the last word. It's his motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

It's my advice that Mr. Abbott has the right to speak, and someone can speak after him. We will listen to Mr. Fast and then we'll have a vote.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Listen, I don't want to turn this into a partisan discussion. Unfortunately some of the minds over on that side are made up, but I did want to address those that are still open. Mr. Malo wanted to hear our view on this.

And Mr. Scott, I think you were assuming that somehow this is an attempt to drag you, or perhaps others on this committee, into re-fighting the battle that we had on the half-masting. I spoke to Mr. Telegdi's bill, and I made it very clear in my comments--and you can check Hansard--that I believe it is more appropriate to deal with half-masting as a broader issue, not simply to take our soldiers, isolate them in that issue or in that discussion, but to talk about some of the others who are involved, like our rescue service providers, and some of the other occasions when we actually half-mast.

I believe there are actually eight times in the year when we half-mast the flag on the Peace Tower. This would be a more appropriate context in which to have a discussion regarding the half-masting on the Peace Tower.

For me it's not a matter of trying to make you complicit in our opposition to Mr. Telegdi's bill. I don't believe it's contempt on your part to support a broader study of half-masting in Canada.

I'll just finish off with a final thought. Mr. Abbott made the point that the expert's report that came out has a number of recommendations that have actually been challenged by some key people, including Tony Cannavino from the Canadian Police Association. I think we need to have a discussion about that. I'm concerned about those recommendations as well.

And yet what you're saying to us is that you don't want to have a discussion here. Then it leaves it up to government to implement those recommendations, and I'm not sure that's what this committee wants done. I'm not sure that's what Mr. Scott wants to do and I'm not sure that's what Mr. Malo wants to do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Mr. Scott is going to have a very short response, and then we're going to call the vote.

[Andy Scott, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

The first thing I would say, Mr. Chair, is that it's very difficult if there are suggestions made about what we say that we don't get to rebut. Just so you know, I feel compelled to be able to do that.

It's very clear that what I'm saying is that—and the debate here this morning suggests my concerns were appropriate, because the debate has taken that turn—at least in part, this future discussion is inclusive of a decision that was taken last night. The debate suggests that. Two members discussed specifically the issues that we know accompanied last night's debate and, to some extent, Mr. Abbott's comments themselves.

You tell me that the government will act on what happened last night, and I will then at least consider the rest of this issue. However, if the rest of this issue trumps Parliament, I can't abide by that.

So I'm not averse to having the discussion you want to have, to be inclusive of other things, other places, and other people, but that should in no way trump what happened last night in the Parliament of Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you for that.

We're going to move on to the vote. The vote was asked for, and the motion is that the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage examine Canada's policy on half-masting of the Canadian flag in relation to provincial, territorial, and international practices.

(Motion negatived)

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

We'll move on to the next thing, and this is just something for people to think about. We do have on our agenda some openings after next Tuesday. Are we interested in looking at the main estimates in this committee?

When it was the previous supplementary estimates, it was deemed that we didn't need to look at them. Do we want to get a little more on our main estimates? Think about that for the next meeting so that we can get some of that booked into our agenda.

If there is no more business, the meeting is adjourned.