Evidence of meeting #15 for Canadian Heritage in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was stations.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ivan Fecan  President and Chief Executive Officer, CTVglobemedia Inc., and Chief Executive Officer, CTV Inc.
Paul Sparkes  Executive Vice-President, Corporate Affairs, CTVglobemedia Inc.
Peggy Hebden  Station Manager, "A" Barrie, CTVglobemedia Inc.
Peter Bissonnette  President, Shaw Communications Inc.
Ken Stein  Senior Vice-President, Corporate and Regulatory Affairs, Shaw Communications Inc.
Jean Brazeau  Senior Vice-President, Regulatory Affairs, Shaw Communications Inc.
Alex Park  Vice-President, Programming and Educational Services, Shaw Communications Inc.
Yves Mayrand  Vice-President, Corporate Affairs, Cogeco Cable Inc.
Peter Viner  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canwest Television, Canwest Media Inc.
Charlotte Bell  Senior Vice-President, Regulatory Affairs, Canwest Media Inc.
Donna Skelly  Co-host, CHCH-TV
Maureen Tilson Dyment  Senior Director, Communications and Programming, Cogeco Cable Inc.

April 22nd, 2009 / 3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Welcome. I am sorry for the delay. We had some votes that we hadn't planned on when we originally set up this meeting. We will hold our one-hour session with each of the witnesses here this afternoon.

Welcome to the 15th meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are carrying out a study on the evolution of the television industry in Canada and its impact on local communities.

I'm going to ask Mr. Ivan Fecan to introduce the rest of the witnesses, please.

Mr. Del Mastro, do you have a point of order?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair.

As you know, we have a very full witness list today. There are three panels. I wanted to make sure that each panel would be given at least the one hour that they've been scheduled for. We are starting late. I just want to make sure they're all going to get their full time.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Everyone will.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Mr. Fecan, please go ahead.

3:55 p.m.

Ivan Fecan President and Chief Executive Officer, CTVglobemedia Inc., and Chief Executive Officer, CTV Inc.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee and committee staff. My name is Ivan Fecan. I'm president and chief executive officer of CTVglobemedia and the CEO of CTV.

Thank you for the invitation to discuss a matter that is vital to the social fabric of Canada: the future of local television. Joining me today, from the corporate side, is Paul Sparkes, executive vice-president, corporate affairs, CTVglobemedia.

We noted that you invited several of our station managers, and I think this was a great initiative on your part, because these people are on the front lines of small-market local television. Peggy Hebden is general manager of CKVR in Barrie, and Don Mumford is the general manager of our stations in London, Wingham, and Windsor. They have been with their stations for many years and can give firsthand testimony on the subjects you are exploring. We also brought Elaine Ali, who is the senior vice-president in charge of all our local stations, both CTV and A. She can share her direct knowledge about how the issues endangering small markets are also now putting large-market stations at risk. I really urge you to ask questions of them directly.

I have some brief opening remarks, right off the top. I just want to state that we are not asking for bailouts or short-term fixes, however well-intentioned they may be. What interests us is a plan to build a sustainable future for conventional television in Canada.

So how did we get here?

Well, several decades ago, local television thrived in an environment in which there were only a few channels available in every home. Over those decades, the competition for attention in every home has mushroomed to hundreds of channels. Competition for share of mind has also come from personal video recorders and from the Internet. Consequently, the ratings for local stations have declined.

That's only part of the story. The advertising pool available to support local television has shrunk as well. In the beginning, advertisers could only reach a local audience in Sudbury through the two local Sudbury TV stations. Over time, an advertiser could reach those viewers in Sudbury through regional channels, then through specialty channels, and now over the Internet.

The erosion of both the audience and the ad pool has been ongoing for years and has finally reached a tipping point. That, in a nutshell, is the structural issue. All advertiser-supported, over-the-air broadcasters around the world are facing the same issue. The recession we are now experiencing hasn't created this problem, but it has accelerated the damage. I don't have a crystal ball and can't predict when the recession will end or how it will end. Will it be a V recovery, will it be a U, or is this just the new normal? What I am sure of is that when this recession ends, it will not go back to the way television was 40 years ago or even to what it was when the recession started. The damage is ongoing and progressive.

The solution to the structural issue gaining traction in the U.S. is fee-for-carriage, otherwise known as retransmission consent. The distributors there seem to understand that they've had a free ride for several decades, that their customers value their local TV stations, and that it's time to pay up. What makes this work in the U.S. is that cable systems need the consent of a local TV station to put that station on their system. For instance, if the cable system in Philadelphia can't reach a deal to carry the ABC station in Philadelphia, it can't just import a signal from another ABC station outside Philadelphia. In other words, no ABC Philly, no Desperate Housewives in Philly, period. In our industry, that's known as program rights protection, and it's an integral part of retransmission consent.

Here's another example. Rochester is just 118 kilometres from Buffalo. The citizens of Rochester are not allowed to see Buffalo television stations on Rochester cable, because this would infringe upon the program rights owned by the Rochester stations. In contrast, Toronto is 160 kilometres from Buffalo, and we happily import all the Buffalo over-the-air signals to our cable systems. Our colleagues in America shake their heads, because they can't understand why, as a country, we would undermine our local stations by doing this. Why was this done? The answer is that it was to build cable's business.

The Broadcasting Act clearly states that local stations have to be given priority carriage in their home territory by the distributors. Yet when satellite was launched, they were allowed to ignore this. This disenfranchised dozens of local stations, such as ours in Timmins. The stated reason was that they didn't have the capacity. Since then, they've launched many satellites and have found room for hundreds of new channels.

Today, satellite penetration is 44% in the Timmins area, but there is still no room for Timmins' only station. Why was this done? To help build the satellite business.

These are but two examples of how systematically over time the underpinnings of local television were compromised by the regulator in order to help the distributors. In addition, when conventional television made a lot of money, the regulator imposed many obligations for the privilege of owning conventional stations. These varied from the amount of local news a station had to produce all the way up to the number of Canadian dramas a station needed to commission from independent producers. As the conventional business deteriorated, the obligations have largely stayed put. This makes no sense.

What we are saying now to the regulator is please give us new revenue sources, or reduce the obligations, or some mix of both. Otherwise, we don't believe there's a business there in the future. Our preference, to be clear, is to solve this through new revenue streams like fee-for-carriage rather than reducing service. As a private broadcaster, we exist to make a profit based on the services we provide. If we don't see a way to make money, we cease to exist, or we exit that service.

Some say we should subsidize the losses of conventional from our profits on specialty television. There are two things wrong with that premise. First of all, our most successful specialty channels--TSN, RDS, and Discovery--have shareholders who are not shareholders of our local stations. How do we tell one shareholder that his or her money is being used to pay for something in which they have no ownership interest?

Secondly, our competitors in specialty--Astral and Chorus--don't have conventional TV holdings of any size. They don't need to cross-subsidize. It would be unfair to ask us to do something that our competitors are not required to do.

Others say we have a financial problem because of what we paid for CHUM a few years ago. Frankly, I scratch my head at this. We bought CHUM for their specialty services in radio. The only conventional television we acquired with CHUM were the A stations, which collectively were worth around 2% of the value of the deal. The purchase of CHUM, and in 2000 of NetStar, which owned TSN, RDS, and Discovery, signalled the move of our company away from purely conventional to specialty. The purchase of specialty has been our lifeline.

Still others say that the problem is we pay too much for American programs. The hard truth is that generally, the money we make on American programming pays for the losses on Canadian programming. Please understand this is not a criticism of Canadian programming. It's about the reality of our market size and the cost of production. Because of the structural issues I outlined earlier, we make less on American than we did before, and now the obligations of these local licences cost more than the money we make.

A few months ago we announced that we were not going to reapply for licences in several locations because we determined that we couldn't make money there ever. We also offered to sell these stations for a nominal fee: $1. Many have come to kick tires; no one has made a real offer to buy and continue operating those local stations. That speaks volumes. Yet local is worth fighting for. In fact, we believe that the foundation of our broadcasting system is local broadcasting, and if we cut those roots we will lose something invaluable as a nation. Local is the comfort zone for our audiences; local is the glue that binds; local is where people live. There may be many forms of community, but the strongest is local. Local broadcasting is not just the news. It's the community messages throughout the broadcast day. It's the interaction between our on-air personalities and local events.

Canada is one of the most diverse countries in the world. Our country is so broad that a collection of voices from one central place cannot speak for all of Canada. Local is the best chance our citizens get to see themselves on the screen and to contribute to the national debate. Local television also gives a place for local debate on issues that can't hold national attention. Local television gives local businesses a chance to speak to their customers and compete with national and multinational businesses. Local is also what Canadian audiences have overwhelmingly told us they value very highly. We believe local should be the top priority for conventional television.

The second priority should be programs of national interest, particularly those that enhance our national identity. This includes national news and current affairs shows like W-FIVE. It also includes shows like Corner Gas, the Junos, the Giller awards, Degrassi, Flashpoint, national talent competitions like So You Think You Can Dance Canada, as well as some professional sports events and the upcoming Vancouver Olympics, but it's very difficult to have this kind of successful national programming without local roots.

Both local and national identities are very important to democracy and both deserve structural support. I repeat, we are not asking for bailouts or short-term fixes, however well intentioned they may be. What interests us is a plan to build a sustainable future for conventional television in Canada.

As time is of the essence, the government needs to act swiftly on a series of structural reforms that will provide a viable framework for local television. That viability proposition includes, one, fee-for-carriage. To set the record straight, fee-for-carriage does not need to impact the consumer, nor will it invoke undue harm to the cable and satellite industry. There is no reason why Canadians should pay more for a service they're already paying for. This is an industry-to-industry matter, and we need a fair regime to negotiate for the value of our signals. In fact, there is no empirical data supporting harm to the consumer, based on the U.S. experience, which changed its policy in 1992 to allow local broadcasters to negotiate carriage fees.

Cable and satellite is one of the most profitable sectors in the Canadian economy, and the players in that sector should pay for what they use and their business. From 2003 to 2007, basic cable rates have gone up almost 36%, almost four times the rate of inflation. We estimate their margins for the basic cable service are in excess of 75%.

Two, on satellite carriage for local TV stations, we simply would like the CRTC to uphold Parliament's clear statement in the Broadcasting Act, which calls for priority carriage of local television stations. Satellite is no longer a fledgling industry. It seems to have ample capacity for a host of U.S. services, adult entertainment channels, and music channels, but can't make room for local stations like Windsor.

Three, on digital transition, the mandated transition in 2011 was not driven by the consumers or by industry; it's a result of a bilateral agreement between the U.S. and Canada, where both governments want to auction the conventional TV spectrum for billions of dollars. This is not about HD programming. We are already investing in HD to respond to consumer demand. What is at issue is how the signal is distributed to Canadians.

Over 90% of Canadians choose to receive their local TV signals through their cable or satellite provider. We cannot justify an investment of several hundreds of millions of dollars to reach 9% of the marketplace, particularly when this investment produces no additional revenue in a business that is already teetering on the edge.

We will be proposing a hybrid solution to the CRTC, which will have an over-air component in the larger markets and a cable or satellite solution for smaller markets.

In conclusion, we are passionate about television. Our belief is demonstrated not merely by rhetoric but by a consistent body of work composed of the top-rated Canadian programming that is unmatched by any other broadcaster in English Canada. In order to continue that audience success, we need your help. We have made three immediate suggestions, all of which can be implemented without amendments to the Broadcasting Act.

Thank you for this opportunity to appear. We very much look forward to answering your questions.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you for that presentation.

Our first question comes from Mr. Rodriguez, please.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon and welcome, Mr. Fecan. It is a pleasure to have you here with us today. I would also like to welcome your colleagues.

You would agree with me that this is a very opportune time to be carrying out this study, given the significant crisis that the television industry is currently experiencing. We have realized that the strictly advertising-based economic model no longer works. There are a host of specialized channels competing for a share of that advertising. There has also been the birth of the Internet and of new platforms. The challenges are huge.

Many say that you are somewhat to blame because you have known this for a long time, and that you should have foreseen this crisis. What do you say to that?

4:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CTVglobemedia Inc., and Chief Executive Officer, CTV Inc.

Ivan Fecan

We did know about this a long time ago and we've been raising it fairly consistently to the regulator over the last three or four years. We think the solution is more than one revenue stream. Our revenue stream in conventional is just advertising, and in specialty there are two revenue streams, subscription and advertising. If you will, there's already a fee for carriage that exists for specialty. So we've been saying this for quite a while, and perhaps we haven't been clear enough. I think we have. We can file a dozen...[Technical difficulty--Editor]....clearly they didn't hear us. Maybe we both need to do a better job of explaining the crisis, but it's certainly been there for a while.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

I'm sorry, I only have five minutes.

Perhaps in a way it is the entire industry that has not done its job. I have trouble imagining how the industry will survive if there are so many disagreements.

Our challenge is to make sure that it works. We are not picking winners or losers. We want things to work for both you and the rest of the industry. However, when certain witnesses appear before the committee, for example the cable operators, they attack you. Then you come and tell the committee of the criticisms that you have regarding them, and so on. I would like for us to be able to find a common solution that will help you get out of this.

You were criticized this week. It was stated that you had made bad investments and that your financial problems are partly your own fault. The question was then asked why the government should come to your assistance.

4:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CTVglobemedia Inc., and Chief Executive Officer, CTV Inc.

Ivan Fecan

If that was the cause of the problem, I would agree with you. But as I tried to explain in our presentation, those investments have been our salvation, not our problem. I'm not here to be critical of anyone, not of the satellite or cable people. I'm just saying that we have a problem. We have something of great value in local television; we have something the citizens of Canada value extremely highly. Just let us talk to industry. Let us come up with an industry-to-industry solution.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Could the famous $60 million CRTC program, the Local Programming Improvement Fund, be a long-term solution to the problems facing local television?

4:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CTVglobemedia Inc., and Chief Executive Officer, CTV Inc.

Ivan Fecan

I don't think so. I have to be precise here. The fund you refer to was designed to enable incremental local programming. The problem we have right now is that we can't pay for the programming we're doing. There are discussions going on to try to change the focus of this fund, but at the end of the day it's a fund focused on small markets. It is a small band-aid on a very big problem. By itself, this would not be a solution. In fact, there's some danger in this fund, because it would allow people to think the problem was solved. Then, in a year, the whole thing would collapse.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

It is not the solution in and of itself, but it could be part of a package of solutions.

You are a great defender of the fee for carriage concept and I have two questions to ask you on that subject. Would you be as strong a supporter of the concept if you were required to invest all of the fees collected in your local stations or in local programming? Could there be an opting out possibility?

For example, all stations would be able to charge a fee for carriage, but a consumer who did not want to pay the 50 cents per month to Global—I say this for your benefit—could choose to opt out. Would you support that idea?

4:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CTVglobemedia Inc., and Chief Executive Officer, CTV Inc.

Ivan Fecan

Yes, I think the money should be used to support local programming. That's what the fee-for-carriage should be doing, because that's what we're trying to protect and save and build here. Second, the opting out thing is a very interesting idea. If somebody decided he didn't want to pay 50¢ or whatever for our station in Montreal, for instance, then he would not be able to use another source to get the programs that this station has exclusive rights to in Montreal.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

What other source?

4:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CTVglobemedia Inc., and Chief Executive Officer, CTV Inc.

Ivan Fecan

Over the air through American cable. If somebody doesn't want our programs, and doesn't want to pay for our programs, and we have paid for exclusive rights, then he should not be able to get those programs for free from somebody else.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you for that answer.

Madame Lavallée.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thank you very much for being here and also for kindly answering our questions.

You told us that your television services were in a state of crisis and that you have distribution problems, whether it is by satellite or by cable. Nevertheless, television is experiencing a crisis for other reasons. We will discuss the decrease in advertising revenues and the splintering of the audience later on. There is also the Internet, which you did not address and which increasingly you are competing against.

I would like to hear your views on that. What impact does the Internet have on your business?

4:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CTVglobemedia Inc., and Chief Executive Officer, CTV Inc.

Ivan Fecan

Thank you for your question.

We look at the Internet as being as much an opportunity as it is a problem, but we started with the problem, so let me deal with that first.

Obviously, there are only 24 hours in a day, and we all have only so much time. Time that might have been spent on television is spent doing something else, so advertising is going to social networking sites. Throughout all of this, television still has a fairly consistent viewership. Even before you add in the Internet, the viewership of television is actually pretty remarkable. Over 30 or 40 years it has been fairly consistent, even in the last few years, on a per capita viewer basis.

Our view of the Internet is that it gives people an opportunity to talk about the shows they like to watch on our channel. We try to screen the shows so that if you missed an episode of Corner Gas, for instance, and you didn't want to wait for the repeat to come up in six months or something, immediately afterward we would try to stream that program so that people could catch up--it's called catch-up viewing--and then maybe there's a better chance they will watch it the next week because they are already in sync with the program. We try to use it as a friend, but it does take away a little bit of time, and it certainly takes away advertising dollars.

We're right now in a recession. Who knows when it will end? When money is tight, people look for other places to try to advertise. Some of it is going to the Internet, but we too are trying to use it as a friend as much as possible.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Are you telling me that you consider the Internet as a complementary vehicle for broadcasting your programming? It is a complement to your services, although you do not sell advertising on the Internet.

4:15 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CTVglobemedia Inc., and Chief Executive Officer, CTV Inc.

Ivan Fecan

We try to use it as a complementary tool. Obviously, we're not involved with Facebook or YouTube or other kinds of social networking sites.

There are basically three types of Internet use: there are the social networks; there are functional sites, such as Google, where you go if you want to ask a question; and there are things that are associated with other products. The Globe and Mail has a very strong Internet site, CTV has a very strong one, and the Olympics will have a huge Internet site. That one part can be extremely complementary.

On our sites we do sell the advertising. I can't say we make money at it; I have to say it's trading dollars for dimes, but you still have to be there, because a lot of the youth is there.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

I really sense that television is evolving. It is as if the industry is on a curve, and I am not sure whether it is on a steep incline or a more even plane. The element that intersects with that curve is the Internet. Increasingly, we are seeing things on television that look a lot like what is being done on the Internet, and vice versa.

The technological problems must be more complex than we can imagine, but we as consumers get the impression that these two media will eventually merge. Broadcasters must act now to envisage future developments—and contribute to them even—and prepare themselves accordingly.

4:20 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CTVglobemedia Inc., and Chief Executive Officer, CTV Inc.

Ivan Fecan

Ms. Lavallée, there is one thing we have to be very clear about. When we talk about television or the Internet that way, we talk about dissemination and distribution. What we also need to focus on is how the content is created. The Internet, even Google, doesn't report news; it sources news from other people, from eyewitnesses, from other reporters. It assembles. It doesn't actually do original reporting.

What we do is the original reporting. What the Internet won't do in Don's station or Peggy's station is the original reporting. We can use the Internet by making some of that reporting available on demand, so that if people missed Peggy's newscast at six o'clock in Barrie and are interested in a particular story, they can watch that story on the Internet, but the Internet won't, on its own, create that content. That is really what local television does and what Canadian television does. We are at our best when we create the content that nobody else does.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Gary Schellenberger

Thank you very much.

We'll move on now to Mr. Angus, please.