Evidence of meeting #60 for Canadian Heritage in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was pope.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

April 24th, 2013 / 3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Moore

Welcome, everybody, to the 60th meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, April 18, 2013, we are going to be studying Bill C-266, an act to establish Pope John Paul II Day. As our witness, we have the member from Mississauga East, Mr. Lizon.

Welcome to our committee. Congratulations on getting your private member's bill this far.

We're going to have an opportunity now for opening remarks. Then there will be a round of questions and answers, for members of the committee to put questions to our witness regarding this bill.

The floor is yours, Mr. Lizon.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, members of the committee.

To start, I have to admit that I'm a bit nervous, for several reasons. It is a special day for me not only because I have an opportunity to present my private member's bill to this committee, but also it's the first time in my life that I am appearing before a parliamentary committee. It is therefore a historical milestone in my life as well.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, I introduced Bill C-266, an act to establish Pope John Paul II Day, to be celebrated on April 2 in Canada. This is not meant to be a statutory holiday and is not meant to be a legal holiday, but a non-juridical day. Therefore, this is an act to have a day to remember the accomplishments of the late pope.

Establishing the day will allow all Canadians the opportunity to reflect on and celebrate a man who took a strong stand on human rights and opened a dialogue with other faiths to promote freedom of religion and speech across the globe. These are values that we as Canadians share. I bring this before you not only as an opportunity to celebrate a man who did so much for millions of Christian followers around the world, but to celebrate a man who did much more to uphold values that we as Canadians cherish so deeply, values of justice, liberty, and democracy.

Pope John Paul II was the third-longest reigning pope in history. In his time as pope he took a strong stand for human rights, democracy, and religious freedom, and visited more than 129 countries to carry his message around the world.

I have a difficulty, especially, when people try to label me for bringing this act to Parliament. This is not a new idea. For those members of the committee who may not know, a similar bill was already introduced in Parliament in the previous session by the member of Parliament at that time for Brampton West, Andrew Kania. There was a two-hour debate, the election was called, and Parliament was dissolved before the bill went to committee.

Also, it was introduced twice, debated, and voted on at the Ontario provincial legislature. It was Frank Klees, MPP for Newmarket—Aurora, who introduced a bill to establish John Paul II Day in Ontario.

I would like to quote a few people who spoke to Frank Klees' bill, because as I said, it's very easy at this point to label me. First of all, I am a Roman Catholic. Second, I was born, raised, and educated in Poland; therefore, like the late pope, I come from Poland. It is therefore easy to label me, saying that the main reason I am introducing the bill is due to my faith and my country of origin.

I will read part of Frank Klees's speech at the provincial legislature, and I quote:

Since presenting this bill for first reading on April 2, 2007, which was the second anniversary of Pope John Paul’s death, the public response to it has been, quite literally, overwhelming. My office received 5,000 signatures on petitions in support of this bill in one day alone, and I know that other members have also received literally thousands of signatures on petitions of support for its passage by this House. Of interest is the fact that many petitions came from non-Catholics, and I believe that this in itself is evidence that people of all faiths recognize the impact of Pope John Paul and that his influence surpassed denominational borders.

Some of the most interesting responses have come when people find out that I, as the sponsor of this bill, am not Roman Catholic—or Polish, for that matter. In fact, I’m a German-born Protestant who studied theology in a Baptist seminary. But like many others, I have been touched and influenced over the years by the life and example of a man who, while carrying out his responsibilities as spiritual leader of millions around the world, never tired of advocating for social justice and human rights at every opportunity. And he had a way of making what he said transcend the ecclesiastical trappings and ceremony that all too often can get in the way of the message.

The second person that spoke was Cheri DiNovo from the provincial NDP. She said:

It’s my honour to speak at such an auspicious occasion....

It’s fascinating that it is so rare that we acknowledge spiritual giants. It’s so rare that we set aside the time, we set aside the place, we set aside a law to acknowledge a day—and that’s all we are asking for here: a day, simply a day to remember this incredible man.

I think I'm finished quoting people from that debate. I would like to point out, listening to colleagues in the House during the two hour-long debates...and I would like to stress that this bill is not a religious bill. It's not meant for Catholics. It's not meant for Poles. It's meant for all Canadians because the late Pope John Paul II embraced everybody—those that believe, those that don't believe.

His role, especially in changing the face of Europe over the course of his 26-year papacy, was just incredible. Wherever he went, wherever he spoke, he advocated for social justice, democratic rights, and human dignity.

As Canadians we are very proud of the fact that so many people immigrate here to find a better life for their families, where they are free to worship as they choose. The respect, admiration, and acknowledgement for the ways that all religions have shaped our world, and even given back to Canadian society, are characteristics that Pope John Paul II shared with all Canadians and with this government. Human rights are very important and define the characteristics of Canada's foreign policy, and our country's identity. Our country and this government have been a strong voice for the protection of human rights and the promotion of democratic values on the world stage.

In Mississauga, I attend many citizenship ceremonies, as many as I can, whenever I have time. I attend citizenship ceremonies because it's really a special moment for people that come from around the world to find, in many cases, a refuge and a better life here in this great country. The rights and freedoms that we enjoy here have no protections in many of the countries they come from, where democracy seems unattainable. Similar to them, I myself left behind....

As members of this committee may know, I grew up in Communist Poland. I was part of the Solidarity movement in the 1980s. I stood, striking, in 1981, when the government decided to introduce martial law and bring in the army and police. We were standing there striking, facing tanks, facing riot police. We had no weapons. But thanks to the strength and encouragement not only people in Poland but people who followed in other countries, including the soviet republics, had the encouragement not to be afraid anymore.

We all have to remember that wherever we have a regime that bases its existence on terror, on fear, at the moment that people lose their fear, that regime can't exist anymore. This is what happened.

For those who may not understand how big a change happened at the end of the last century in Europe, it's incredible. When I was growing up, many people did not believe that the change would ever happen in our lifetime. The Soviet Union seemed extremely strong, and the division between the west and the east in the Cold War and the arms race that was taking place were just incredible.

I don't know whether all of you honourable committee members understand that to live in or under an oppressive regime.... I don't think it can be explained or understood by people who take what we have in this great country for granted. I would wish that our young Canadians have an opportunity, at least once in their lifetimes, to go to other countries just in order to understand how great this country that we live in is.

I don't know, Mr. Chair, how much time I have. I think I probably am over 10 minutes. Therefore, just in closing, I would like to ask all the members of the committee, as I did the House, for support in declaring April 2 Pope John Paul II Day in Canada, to honour this great man and everything he stood for.

Thank you very much.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Moore

Thank you, Mr. Lizon. Thank you for sharing information about your bill and also a bit of your life story. I don't think all of us knew all those details.

We have some speakers.

Mr. Boughen.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Mr. Lizon, for appearing before us this afternoon.

As you know, Pope John Paul II was instrumental in the downfall of communism. I would like to give you an opportunity to speak on that and to share that personal experience with us as it relates to communism and what role you played in the experience of having a country that was communistic.

Could you share a little of that with us?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Thank you very much for the question. To be honest, it's difficult because I don't know really where to begin.

When Cardinal Wojtyla became pope in 1978, I was in my last year at university in Krakow, where he was archbishop. I met him when he was Archbishop of Krakow. I used to go to a mass that he celebrated once a month for youth. He was always very close with young people and very active. I guess that's why he eventually, as pope, created World Youth Day where young people can come and celebrate. One of those took place in Toronto in 2002.

When he was chosen pope, it created a shockwave throughout Poland. The authorities had no idea how to react because I guess they were not prepared. People on official state TV—there was no other one—didn't know what to say because they had no knowledge of how the papacy worked. I guess they had to bend and call priests to explain.

The following year, in 1979, the pope made his first visit to Poland. I already graduated. I was married. My wife was doing her master's thesis at Jagiellonian University. She was six months pregnant when the pope's visit took place, and I went to a few masses that he celebrated. One of those was in Krakow, especially for young people, in the evening in the big courtyard of the monastery next to the royal castle. We were so amazed and encouraged by what he said, and he said several times, “Have no fear, be not afraid.”

I don't think people understood at that time what it meant, but when I was walking with a crowd of people back to the main square of Krakow through the streets, I saw something that I had never seen in my life. People had Polish flags in their windows and they were waving flags, but they were not the flags that I've always seen. They were the flags that were banned, with a Polish eagle and a crown on its head. The crown was banned by the communists. The Polish eagle had no crown on its head during the communist era. Those people had these flags hidden since the end of the war. It was the first sign that I truly understood that people were not afraid. People were expressing what they felt inside.

Two years later the Solidarity movement began with a big wave of strikes in 1980. It may sound funny that in the system that was called.... Poland wasn't really called communist. It was called socialist. Even the Polish communist party was not called the communist party of Poland. It was called the Polish United Workers' Party. It was amazing that in a country that was run by the working class, the very working class had to go on strike to fight for their basic rights.

Do I still have time?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Moore

Between the two of you, you have two more minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Ray Boughen Conservative Palliser, SK

Maybe we can switch over and you could talk a little bit about how John Paul II influenced youth, and not only in Poland but around the world.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

John Paul II.... I'm not talking about his influence as the religious leader, but again as a person who was standing so strongly for democratic rights, basic human rights, human dignity. Wherever he went on his foreign visits he advocated for human rights, democracy. He was instrumental in bringing down not only communism in eastern and central Europe, and eventually the collapse of the Soviet Union, but also in bringing a dictatorship to its end in many other countries.

As an example, I give Chile, Paraguay, and Haiti. Even his visit to Cuba did not bring the change of a system, but it brought a lot of change because they reopened churches in Cuba around his visit. Therefore, finally, after many years since the Cuban revolution, people were able to go again to church and worship.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Moore

Next we're going to move to Mr. Nantel, for seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will speak in English while you put your headset on.

I must say, first, thank you for coming here and introducing your bill. As our chair said, it's very interesting to hear your story and your motivation.

Can you hear the interpretation now?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Yes, I can.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

Great.

This bill intrigues me a lot. I find the situation very delicate and complex. I am 50 years old, so Pope John Paul II was in the news all through my late teens and my time as a young father, and so on. I am the first to agree that the man played a pivotal role. Was that role positive or negative? Some people very close to the Catholic faith still do not see Pope John Paul II's record as very positive in terms of Catholicism. Were you aware of that?

You have certainly been in contact with people who have told you that. I am not talking about non-Catholics, but about Catholics whose opinion is not as positive as mine was when I was younger. For me, his image as a Pope was very positive. Some people dispute that today.

Have you met people who have taken that position?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Thank you very much for the question.

Honestly speaking, I have not. I've had discussions with people who claim to be atheists, who did express their own views that they are opposed to what I am doing. I understand that there are people, there will be people among Catholics, who would not necessarily have or share the same views that many people do share about this pope and about his role in the church.

That's life. I don't think there has ever been a single person in the history of humankind that would please everybody and that everybody would agree to have the same or similar opinion about. Therefore, if there is a criticism among some Catholics of the late Pope John Paul II, I would look at it as something that's normal and something that he would probably view himself as positive. It's positive because criticism usually brings, if people want to listen to it, a positive change.

Therefore, we in the House have different views, even on this bill. People spoke for it and people spoke against it. I may not share their views or agree with their opinions, but I value their stand and the fact that we can exchange ideas and discuss it. This is very positive.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC

Thank you for your answer. It was very clear.

I actually have done research with some very committed Catholics, including some who used to preach the gospel and teach the catechism. Their position on John Paul II is actually very critical.

That said, as you said, you can set the religious question aside and look at it from a political or historical perspective. So can you tell me, on this question of a possible national day in Canada—it might be quite natural to imagine one in Poland—whether you have heard people ask why there would not be a day for Norman Bethune, for Mother Teresa or for anyone else who has played a major role?

What do you say to people who make those arguments? I think that approving this bill is a very complicated issue.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

I agree, it is a complex issue. We have to make choices in life. If you look at the history of the world, if you look back in history, people always had a tendency to recognize special people. In many countries, there are rulers who made a significant change in the history of the country or the region and they were called “the great”. There are not many of these. Probably at that time some people had this discussion. Probably they shared the same argument: why would we recognize this person, or that person, and not the other one?

You always get that argument, but I truly believe in the significance of this very pope, who happened to be the leader of the Catholic church and who implemented such huge changes in a big part of the world. We should grant that special day for him in Canada, especially taking into consideration the fact that our country is not a very old country but it is an old democracy, one of the oldest modern, western-style democracies in the world. Everything that the pope did is aligned with the achievements that our great country made in this regard.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Moore

Thank you, Mr. Nantel.

Mr. Simms, you have seven minutes.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Lizon, it's good to see you, as we have had several discussions about this. Like Mr. Boughen, I did not know the circumstances of your past and I thank you for sharing that.

I always thought that Pope John Paul II was one of the ultimate diplomats of the world. One could argue that even his title would have given him that alone. It's one thing to have a big title, but you have to use it in the right way. According to the statistics here, 104 pastoral visits outside of Italy alone should tell you that the man had a grasp of the world. He had a grasp of the issues. I said in my speech, I'll never forget the time when I was a teenager and he visited our little island on the east coast, Newfoundland. It was quite something for all of us to see him there, as we had many Catholics on the island.

But this is not just for Catholics, as you said, as your background alone dictates. You are not Catholic. I am not Catholic, but I certainly endorse what it is you're doing here for what he did, whether it was the fall of communism, helping to feed the hungry, or World Youth Day. These are images and actions brought to us by a man who had a great title, but he did great things with that title.

When you set out to declare a day for him and what he has done, obviously you are looking at deeds beyond what he has done within the church. Is that correct?

4 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

That's correct.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

We argued this before in the House—I shouldn't say argue because there really wasn't much argument against it. When we discussed it, we looked at the deeds that he did and certainly the impact that he will have. I think certainly history will dictate that his deeds were far greater than we perhaps even realize today.

How do you feel?

4 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

I agree with you. Thank you for the question. I totally agree with you because we don't have the full scope of information. Probably we won't have it for many years to come because there were interactions by different governments in preparation of certain actions, especially if we're talking about the changes in eastern and central Europe that eventually led to this integration of the fall of the Soviet Union and the fall of the great Berlin Wall.

Eventually we will get that information. We will know more because what information may not be public today will be eventually made public by different sources down the road. Therefore we will have a better view of what happened, how it happened, and how it was conducted.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

To me, another great hallmark of what he has accomplished, when you consider history—and this too, I'm sure, he will be fondly remembered for as time marches on—is building the bridge, within the religion of Christianity, toward the Jewish faith as well as Muslims.

Would you like to comment on that as well?

4 p.m.

Conservative

Wladyslaw Lizon Conservative Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON

Most likely the members of the committee know that Pope John Paul II was the first pope to visit the synagogue. Then, eventually, he visited a mosque as well. If any of the honourable committee members remember, if they watched his funeral in Rome, in 2005, and looked at the people who came to pay their last respects to him, they came from many different faiths. It was not Catholics saying goodbye to their leader. There were people who came from all the corners of the world, from different religious denominations, to pay tribute to the great man who embraced them all, and reached out to them as well.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Simms Liberal Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL

That's good.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Moore

Thank you, Mr. Simms.

We have Mr. Young, for seven minutes.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I wanted to congratulate you on your bill, Mr. Lizon.

I'm an Anglican. I grew up in the Anglican church. I want to say that on the record. I have no Polish background, so I might as well say that as well.

I think Pope John Paul II was a great leader who no doubt changed the world and certainly changed the face of Europe. The record shows that the U.S.S.R. started to fall apart after Gorbachev declared glasnost and perestroika. He visited Pope John Paul in 1989, and they became friends. Pope John Paul II influenced him, as he influenced the change in Europe. The story you told is beautifully, eloquently poignant about how he changed the thoughts of the Polish people and how he worked with Solidarity. There's a record of correspondence back and forth between President Reagan and John Paul II. They literally worked together to help free the Eastern bloc, to help free Europe. It's an amazing thing to me, and I think it's perfectly appropriate that he be recognized in Canada.

I wanted to mention here as well, in fact, that Gorbachev actually said that the collapse of the Iron Curtain “would have been impossible” without John Paul II.

That's coming from the man who made it happen. A lot of people don't know that President George Bush presented the Presidential Medal of Freedom to John Paul II, and the citation actually says, “this son of Poland whose principled stand for peace and freedom has inspired millions and helped to topple communism and tyranny.”

So, what he was able to accomplish is all officially on the record, on a political level, on a secular level as well.

But your story, to me, is an important story of a lot of people who worked to free their own country. I visited Poland recently. Their economy is doing well and they are doing well, and others came to Canada or went to the United States. To me, it's a touching story. I wanted to ask you how those events affected you personally, with particular reference to why you ran for Parliament in Canada.