Canadian Heritage Committee on April 17th, 2018

[Tim Jones]

We've made an organizational commitment to growing the practice of creative placemaking globally. Our ambition is to mainstream this practice over the next five years, working both within Canada and internationally.

Within Canada, we teach a university course through the University of British Columbia on creative placemaking. We have a mentorship and coaching program that helps communities interested in these activities advance cultural hub developments.

Currently we're working with the folks in Halifax around repurposing the old convention centre into a community cultural hub. A few years ago, we created a sister organization in Vancouver called B.C. Artscape, which is using the same kinds of principles in that community. In about a month, in early June, we're playing host to a conference in association with the World Cities Culture Forum. It's a study tour in Toronto that will bring together 50 leaders from cities around the world and across Canada to look at the innovations in making space for culture and leveraging culture for change in urban development.

I would say that in a rural context the principles of our work are equally applicable. The idea of clustering creative people together can have an impact in a rural context equal to the impact in an urban one. Look at the great success of what's happened in Prince Edward County, with putting together the winemakers, the beer makers, the cheese makers, and the artisans. They are there in a place that used to not have much of an identity. That's an example of how this principle of clustering, bringing people together in a rural context, can have a profound impact on both the local economy and the identity of the place.

[Jim Eglinski, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Ms. Lunde.

[Liv Lunde]

Contrary to what people believe, we don't have access to a lot of funding. I spend most of my time trying to figure out where we can get more money and how we can convince people that we are a cultural hub and that we do work in the arts. We also work in technology, but I think there's a whole portion of what we do that just gets ignored.

No offence to the City of Montreal, who are sitting right beside me, but they don't define us as culture so we can't turn to them for help. We can't turn to our provincial government for help either, because they don't define us as cultural. We struggle for funding as much as rural communities do.

I grew up in a small town in Alberta. I know how hard it is. My parents worked as arts administrators and ran one of the local theatres in that town. I saw my entire life that this was a difficult thing to do. I empathize with the smaller communities and their lack of resources and access to funding. While my mission is to help specifically the community within my walls and the ones that come to our events, I haven't hesitated to reach out to these hubs that sit in the smaller communities throughout Quebec and to develop relationships with them to see how we can help them.

I'm lucky. Video games are inherently a digital art form, so we can work with people and mentor them through the Internet. We can access their work and share our work digitally. We don't need to physically be in a space with them.

The other thing we've done is that we've kept all of our costs low. We've had only two events in the last three years that people have had to pay for. Other than that, they're free and open to the public, which lowers the barrier to entry for anyone who doesn't have money. For students who are looking to enter the industry, for anyone who just wants access, it's there. I think these things have helped to attract people to our space and to our online space as well. If I could do more outside, in the smaller communities, I would.

[Jim Eglinski, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

I would like to get a response from the City of Montreal.

[Christine Gosselin]

Your question is very pertinent. On our map, as you can see, there are pink dots that are quite far from the centre. These are 45- or 50-minute drives from downtown Montreal when there is no traffic. In these outlying centres, which are still boroughs of the city of Montreal, we have to develop a model that very much resembles the one you would have in a small town. If fact, some of these are old agricultural villages, with their church and their community centre.

We create hubs with municipal equipment as a starter for, sometimes, devastated main streets that have been drained by the construction of commercial centres. We wish to restart the commercial vitality of these districts via this large equipment, which will draw people from the surrounding area the way commercial centres do.

[Jim Eglinski, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Do you think there's a need for more federal funding for these smaller communities and for the larger communities to help them?

[Christine Gosselin]

There's always a need for more federal funding. We really do wonders with the money that you send us, and we always match it with provincial funds and our own funds. It really goes a long way. Also, we—

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

I'm going to have to cut you there, but I appreciate that.

Mr. Nantel, go ahead.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Jones, I have a very quick question for you. Can Artscape be considered a little like a technical resources group for housing co-op projects? Do you see your organization as being a technical facilitator?

Do you see yourself as a resource? I know that in Quebec we have a group, the GRT, groupes de ressources techniques. Groups come to them and say, “We want to build a housing co-operative”, and the GRT comes in and says, “Okay, how do you want to see it, and we'll materialize your hopes in the plan.”

Do you see yourselves like this?

[Tim Jones]

Yes, we're kind of a unique organization in the world. We act as a developer. We develop both affordable housing for artist-led families as well as these community cultural hubs. We also act as a bit of an intermediary, working to build a shared vision and value between urban developers, philanthropists, people advancing public policy—

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Do you have a parallel in Quebec? Would you say the McConnell Foundation is working with you?

[Tim Jones]

McConnell has supported some of our work, but there's not a direct parallel. There are other artist studio providers, like Cité des Artistes in Montreal, that are—

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

For a specific project.

[Tim Jones]

—for specific projects, or are specifically focused on artists' studios.

This is work that is trying to find the sweet spot between developers and the activists, policy, and philanthropy.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you.

This is why I was asking.

It's a bit like the example of a municipality, a village, a city, a district that has a vision. To realize it, an organization like this can be consulted.

In any case, before asking a specific question to each of you, I would like to tell you that this morning's testimony—especially that of the representatives for the City of Montreal—demonstrates just how vast the scope of the study is and how difficult it is to define. You gave four distinct presentations on various aspects, including the pixellation of the cultural offering in Montreal, district by district to the DestiNATIONS project which I think is the archetype of what is kind of the dream of ultimately making the program for cultural hubs a reality. You also talked about the concept of cultural districts and mentioned the Quartier des spectacles.

You have gone all out to demonstrate how important Montreal is to culture. As a Montreal homeowner, I am very proud of that, but I think we'll have to clarify certain things.

Ms. Lunde, you understand the quest for the musical dimension of the cultural milieu, since you were part of the management team at Ariane Moffatt at one time, I believe.

I used to work in a recording studio where we charged $200 an hour to rent it. Eventually, almost all the studios, except the one where I worked, were dismantled. A group of artists then gathered in a large room at Studios Piccolo. Everyone made a small contribution to pay the rent.

You did the same thing with the concept of shared workspace. I had the chance to meet people from Garage & co, an organization in Longueuil that has adopted this mode of collaboration. We'll remember the presentation of 312 Main in Vancouver's Downtown Eastside. Here, the dimensions of culture, social mission and shared workspace were grouped together. It's virtue, it's wonderful.

I also met people from the Montréal Cowork organization, and what I see is that every creator, not just art creators, but anyone who has a creative approach to their work—who thinks outside the box—wants to share their experience. This is what companies aren't doing anymore. They got rid of their employees, arguing that the payroll taxes were too steep. It sounds cynical to say that in terms of business, but it's still the reality. Finally, they fired employees in order to pay less in taxes, and we end up with the deficit that we know today.

We are seeing more and more freelance workers, and they end up feeling the need to group together. The enthusiasm of these people is quite wonderful.

It is true that Montreal is like a flagship for the concept of shared workspaces in general. The question I want to ask you three or all four of you, including Mr. Jones, is this: what do you recommend? What do you think the dangers are? What approaches should we adopt? What we are doing here is obviously clearing the way for Canadian Heritage.

Can we pinpoint the gaps and come up with some recommendations so that the Government of Canada can support initiatives like yours without interfering with local expertise?

[Liv Lunde]

I echo the sentiments of a whole bunch of arts organizations across Canada. The funds are project-based, so I need to continually come up with a new project. That means that I need to spend my resources and time on that project, and not on what we do day to day.

I recently applied for funding for a project that we're doing with the Ministère de l'Économie, de la Science et de l'Innovation.

I will be working directly on that project along with staff that I hired, but I'm not allowed to put a portion of my salary in that budget. Even though 20% of my time is going into it, it's the only line item they removed from our budget.

Our day-to-day costs, or the value of my time, as executive director of this organization, was removed entirely from that project, yet I'm expected to support that project. I'm expected to make sure that we do all the paperwork, that we abide by all the contracts with the government, that we do our finances, and that I do an audit every year. Who's time is that? It's my time as the administrator, yet there is a value of zero dollars put on my time.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

How do we reach out to industry so that it sees the economic value and the jobs within this context, and not only the heritage thing?

[Liv Lunde]

Yes, and to put, in these grants, money for the people who are doing the day-to-day work in order for these organizations to thrive, in order for us to support the industries that are making money and that are contributing back into the economy. Our space alone, the studios in our first year of operations, generated $10 million. In the second year it was $25 million. That's from our support. I didn't generate that money. I'm a not-for-profit. I'm not in that. That's the kind of contribution we're giving to society, yet our time is devalued to zero dollars.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

I'll have to cut it off there. If anybody has other answers, you can submit them in writing as well.

Ms. Dhillon, you have the floor.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you very much.

Since we only have five minutes, I will share my time with Mr. Hogg.

My question is for Mrs. Gosselin or Mrs. Laverdière.

The City of Montreal aims to be a cultural metropolis and funds many projects throughout the city.

In your opinion, in what way does support for cultural hubs and cultural districts contribute to this objective?

[Suzanne Laverdière]

The philosophy underlying the city's new cultural policy is to foster local culture and encounters between citizens and culture. This includes awareness of cultural recreation programs as well as the city's orientation to the “living together” that is being talked about in Montreal. It takes shape through the culture, inclusion and fairness that exists between creators and Montrealers. In this sense, any development of cultural districts and infrastructures will consolidate this approach.

In addition, there is much talk of the need to invest in places, since these are the basis of projects. That said, it will be necessary to be vigilant. Almost all cultural organizations and businesses are aware of the problems faced by the company of the lady who made a presentation earlier. We invest a lot in infrastructure, but we forget that it takes money to keep it up and running, to do the necessary work and to keep things running.

As for the investments that the city wishes to make in the future—and we hope that the Canadian government will do the same—it will be important to establish the types of mutualisation, to create shared workplaces, to put in place risk-sharing structures, where new business models will be applied in ways that allow businesses and organizations to carry much less of a financial burden and do what they are really intended to do, that is, create. They spend most of their time looking for funds to survive.

As for us, the orientation we give to our cultural policy, which is related to cultural districts and organizations, includes new business models, models of social economy, risk sharing, mutualisation and development of cultural entrepreneurship.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Perfect.

Thank you very much.

[Gordie Hogg, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

It's been referenced many times, the CRA, references to our different models, and interfacing with business. In England they've developed community interest corporations. Our primary models with a non-profit are foundation and business models. In British Columbia we developed a community contribution company, basically a non-profit. You're not allowed to make a profit, buy a franchise, pay your boards of directors, or sell shares. We tried to develop a model that blended the non-profit with a business and make something in the middle so that you can have the benefit of doing that.

I'm interested in, and it occurred to me during some of your discussions and some of the previous discussions we've heard, whether or not a foundational change in your delivery model, in your incorporation, allowed you to have more flexibility. My primary source of interest in this is that I worked in social programming so we developed social impact bonds. We now have about 45 community contribution companies in British Columbia that look at blending these two models.

I'm wondering if there is a foundational change. Would that be of any benefit? This may be a tough question off the top without my having much background on it, but when you mentioned people making reference to the CRA....

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

I think we have about half a minute, so you might want to think about that and provide an answer in writing. I would very much encourage you to do so. If someone thinks they can say something in 25 seconds....

[Christine Gosselin]

I think I can. I would like to.

We've all highlighted, each in our different ways, that culture does a lot with very little. We have to get out of this mindset where we see culture as decorative and that it's a secondary thing that you add after you finish doing everything else. What we've shown in Montreal is that the way that the new economy is setting itself up very much on a social economy model, everybody at every level of government, municipal, provincial, federal, needs to bring home to their colleagues the importance of investment in culture for economic development.