Canadian Heritage Committee on May 1st, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Mr. Shields.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The renovations to the NAC building are fantastic. Well done. They have highlighted it, and I think the people who attend will appreciate what you've done. I do. They are very well done.

[Adrian Burns]

You're very kind. Thank you.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

It's too bad more Canadians can't get to Ottawa to see that fine facility.

A couple of mentions were made of HR. You talked about headhunters. Having had some experience with head hunters, I don't trust them because they bring their own agenda. When you talk about using headhunters in HR, I think that's where a board's got a huge role to play in what it wants to do. If you're in the business with headhunters, would you like to respond to HR and headhunters as far as your board directions for gender parity are concerned?

[Adrian Burns]

Certainly in terms of the government, our pattern is set, Madam Chair.

We, of course, go through the process of the open application. Then, if you could take a hundred applications or just distill them down to perhaps 25 who have the credentials to be brought forward to a committee, which then distills that with a recommendation to the minister.... Our process is set by the federal government. It seems to be working well.

To address the private institutions, I would have to defer to my colleagues.

[Alexandra Badzak]

I would say that in the visual arts institutions, they certainly do use headhunting firms quite a lot, and then those recommendations are typically brought to hiring committee made up of board members.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Is your board very strong in the sense of giving direction to the headhunter on whom they should bring to you?

[Alexandra Badzak]

Again, I'm not speaking specifically of my institution, but from what I've witnessed across Canada from the late hirings that have occurred recently, you're seeing those recommendations typically coming from headhunting firms to hiring committees and to a board. To be honest, I think to the point that Christina made, you're often now seeing international candidates brought forward.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I guess that goes to my point of what you're saying, that if you have headhunters who are bringing those they believe are the best, unless you've got a very strong board, you are hamstrung by a group and whom they're bringing to you.

[Alexandra Badzak]

I'd have to agree.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You've mentioned HR, so this is a function of HR. It's been mentioned by two of you. You talk about board development. This is a critical piece, because if you don't get that board development with the strength and vision of what they want, you are then subject to what somebody else brings.

[Christina Loewen]

I agree with what you're saying. I think that the point of leverage for that is in the policies and the processes that you're able to regulate through the board of directors. With headhunting firms and search firms, it's all about how you regulate that, what the equal and reciprocal discussion is that you might be having around parity for profit corporations, and how that might affect the work that headhunting firms do.

I think that the real point of leverage here is with the board.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Absolutely.

[Adrian Burns]

Madam Chair, could I add one comment?

We do not use headhunters, Mr. Shields, in our leadership or management at all. I have a tendency to agree with you, having gone through a couple of searches in the private sector on the boards that I sit on. I'm happy to say that our latest search for our CEO did not use a headhunting firm.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Thank you very much.

We now give the floor to Mr. Nantel.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank everyone. These presentations have been very eloquent, as I think the cultural community is—in any case, we would like to think so—progressive in nature to begin with, and probably more so than other sectors.

Ms. Burns, you talked about the fact that change should come from the top. Of course, both you and your board of trustees are perfect examples of that. However, I sometimes wonder whether we have an issue with middle management in society when it comes to achieving parity.

We can have organizations like yours that promote parity in concrete terms, from top to bottom, but we have a problem. Could we do something to generate interest in those positions among candidates likely to be interested in occupying them?

For example, I am thinking of the testimony of a volunteer from the Musée de la femme in Longueuil, who once organized an activity for women in order to encourage them to participate in the boards of directors of businesses she was familiar with and to apply.

Entrepreneur Alexandre Taillefer took the time to make a presentation to encourage women to apply for these positions. Would that kind of an initiative be an example of what we could accomplish? In my opinion, you have some good examples to tap into and show. However, natural candidates do not seem to be common.

[Adrian Burns]

If I take the question as to what we could do at the middle management level, Madam Chair, I think that we do extremely well at encouraging all of our employees and our workforce to apply for all positions in senior management. Of course, you know the board level. We are GIC appointments, and we go through a rather rigorous process. I've been there some time now in different positions on the board, as have some of the members. I think we are doing all that we can at the moment, and we continue to look at it. It is something of great importance to us, so I thank you for your kind comments on the Arts Centre.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I won't comment on the new works, but the NAC is much more welcoming than it has ever been, and it's become a living space where we can actually enjoy culture.

Ms. Badzak, you said how proud you were—and justifiably so—of the parity within your organization. In concrete terms, how did you achieve that?

[Alexandra Badzak]

I will say that the sector is dominated by females, and I just hire the best people, so it's a result of the nature of the environment and the excellent candidates who came forward.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

While we are here, and we have people who are so interested in culture, I would like to give notice of a motion.

I have brought 12 copies of the text. I would ask the clerk and the staff to come get them.

You will see that it is very relevant. It concerns the sale of a Chagall painting by the National Gallery of Canada, in Ottawa. I think this is something that highlights our committee's importance. We would not want politics to interfere in the policies of national museums, but a committee like ours can do it, and so I would like to put forward a motion.

The QMI Agency and The Globe and Mail having noted the appropriateness of the minister's intervention in accordance with some aspects of the legislation, the motion requests that we hear from the museum's management and the individual in charge of policies.

The motion reads as follows:

That the Committee invite the Chair of the Board of Trustees of the National Gallery of Canada, Françoise Lyon, the Director of the National Gallery, Marc Mayer, the Chairperson of the Canadian Cultural Property Export Review Board, Sharilyn J. Ingram, and the Department of Canadian Heritage, within 45 days, to explain decisions concerning Marc Chagall's La tour Eiffel and Jacques-Louis David's Saint Jerome Hears the Trumpet of the Last Judgment and to account to the Committee for these decisions' cost to the public.

I had never heard of those paintings, and now everyone knows about them. This story is interesting to people. I think our committee can shed some light on this situation.

When we move this kind of a motion, the meeting has to be interrupted, unless we announce it well in advance. I think that you are the best positioned and the best audience to understand how relevant this is.

I apologize. We can postpone the vote if you like, but I wanted to put forward the motion.

My time is certainly up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Thank you for the presentation.

As you know, Mr. Nantel, you have 48 hours to propose your motion, so we will put it aside and will vote later.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

We will give the floor to Ms. Dhillon, who has seven minutes.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Good morning to all of our witnesses. Thank you for coming in today.

My questions will be general and directed at all of you, because I want everyone to have a chance to answer.

The first one is a comment that you all have vast experience. I think, Ms. Burns, you have 18 years of experience. Over the years, have you noticed any trends in gender parity and the role of females in the arts?

[Alexandra Badzak]

As I mentioned, we've definitely seen the visual arts sector dominated by females, but when it comes to the most important institutions of our country, those with the largest budgets, we're not seeing a rise from the municipal level up to the larger regional and national institutions. We're not seeing a feeding group of directors across the country moving into those positions. In fact, what we're seeing is candidates who are often coming from outside of Canada to fill those positions.