Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 8th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

I call to order the 130th meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Today, we will continue our study on Bill C-369, an act to amend the Bills of Exchange Act, the Interpretation Act and the Canada Labour Code (National Indigenous Peoples Day).

We have with us for our first panel today, Ry Moran of the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation; and Terri Brown, from the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation Survivors' Circle.

We'll begin with you, Mr. Moran.

[Ry Moran, Director, University of Manitoba, National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation]

Yes. Wonderful.

I'm just going to make a few very quick opening remarks.

Thank you for inviting us today.

Importantly I want to introduce Terri Brown, who is the chair of our survivors' committee at the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation. It's very important that we start this dialogue with survivors and that we always remember that this conversation that we're having today is about survivors, about what they endured, and the legacy that has been left for their families and communities.

I go over to Terri.

[Theresa Brown, Chair, National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation, Survivors Circle]

Good morning, everybody, it's a pleasure to be here today to do a short presentation. I want to share with you some brief comments about what it's like to be a survivor.

When I was 10 years old I was taken from the love of my family, community and nation. I was given a number and locked up. My story is not unique. We suffered mental, physical, spiritual, emotional and sexual abuse, and all kinds of human rights violations. My story is a tragic one, but I'm grateful to be here. Many of my fellow students went missing, died, were never seen again by their families.

Our stories are a gift to you, Canada, so we can set things right. This shame is not ours to bear alone. We must reconcile together. A national memorial will give the message that this history is important, and that we matter and are believed.

A special, separate day when our grandchildren could go out and lay a wreath, lay tobacco, pray and remember is important to me and other survivors. It is also a time for this country to remember and say “never again”. We want to know that when we are gone, our spirit of truth and reconciliation will live on in our future generations.

We ask you, Canada, to consider setting aside this special, separate day that is not in combination with any other day, a day when we will say “never again” together.

Thank you. Mahsi cho.

[Ry Moran]

Thank you, Terri, and thank you, all of you, for having us here. These conversations we're having are obviously of the utmost gravity for the country.

Some time back, I received a call from some folks in Alberta asking why I had referred to the necessary learning that was ahead of students in that province as exploring the concept of “cultural genocide” in this country. I replied very plainly that if you open the front page of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's summary report, you see that after a comprehensive and detailed study of the history of this country, the TRC was forced to conclude that there are no words for it other than “cultural genocide”.

This is a very difficult pill for this country to swallow. It is an extraordinarily difficult concept for us to wrap our heads around as a nation because for so long we have been seen as a nation of humanitarians, as peacekeepers and as upholders of human rights. But as we examine the evidence, we find time and time again that those human rights have not been extended fully and comprehensively to indigenous peoples in this country and that we continue today still to suffer or realize a comprehensive human rights crisis in this country in certain areas, especially in regard to child and family services.

This means that Canada is going through a painful process of awakening, discovery, reflection, truth-telling, healing and, certainly, reconciliation.

When we take a step back and look at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action, the concept of memory and cementing this painful history into our national consciousness is reiterated throughout multiple calls to action. Certainly, this national memorial day is a very important day in that regard, so that we as a country have the opportunity to come together with humility, deep respect and sorrow to reflect on the actions that this state has undertaken.

In understanding that day, we have to understand that it's not just a day to remember but also a day to educate and that we need to keep telling these stories over and over again in this country for a very long period of time, because reconciliation will not happen overnight. We have to dig in for the long term on this.

We also have to understand this call to action in context, because there are other calls to action. One calls for a national memorial. One calls for memorial statues to be erected in every provincial capital. One calls for communities themselves to be empowered to develop community narratives. One calls on the national Historic Sites and Monuments Board to properly honour and acknowledge the actual sites of mass human rights violations, which were recognized through the Indian Residential Schools Settlement Agreement.

Taken together, when we look at the future of the country in five or six years, say, I see a country where we have marked the sites of residential schools, where as a state we have officially recognized these, and where we have memorials erected where leaders, students, survivors, indigenous and non-indigenous people will gather together and reflect on this history. I see a future wherein communities are further empowered to keep telling their stories about how they have been forced to endure this very difficult evolution of Canada.

I see all of this being very powerful for the coming young people in this country. This is who we are doing our work for now. My young children, aged nine and six, are now in schools where residential schools are being talked about. That's a very positive thing, but there are many more generations to come, and they need to be given the opportunity to also reflect on the great injustices that have been inflicted.

Before we move into the questions, I want to turn very quickly to a concept that is very important. At the international level, Canada, as a nation among nation states, is obviously influenced by the various human rights codes and declarations and commitments that we've made. One of those, obviously, is the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, which says that indigenous peoples, broadly paraphrasing, have a right to see their history accurately reflected by the state. That's very important.

But there are other human rights principles. The one I want to draw your attention to is the updated set of principles for the protection and promotion of human rights to combat impunity. These are broadly referred to as the Joinet-Orentlicher principles.

Typically speaking, these principles often refer to documentary heritage or protecting the evidence of mass human rights violations, but one of the really important sections in this set of principles reads:

A people's knowledge of the history of its oppression is part of its heritage and, as such, must be ensured by appropriate measures in fulfilment of the State's duty to preserve archives and other evidence concerning violations of human rights and humanitarian law and to facilitate knowledge of those violations. Such measures shall be aimed at preserving the collective memory from extinction and, in particular, at guarding against the development of revisionist and negationist arguments.

That says we have to stand on guard, not only to protect the truth of what has happened, but to protect ourselves from ourselves in the future. The reason we have a place like the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation is to preserve the memory and to continue this process of truth-telling. There is a call for a national day so we continue to recognize just how severe the violations were. This has to become as Canadian as any of the great values we uphold in Canadian society, this humility, this reflection, this respect and this duty to remember.

I'm going to leave it there, but we have the opportunity and have been called upon to do better as a country. Doing better has to entail cementing this memory and these opportunities for reflection within our national fabric now, tomorrow and for generations to come.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Thank you for that.

We have people today who are new to our committee for the day. Mr. Ouellette, Mr. McKay, Ms. Lambropoulos, Ms. Wagantall and Mr. Zimmer. Welcome to this committee.

We are now going to begin our question and answer period with a seven-minute round.

Ms. Dhillon, please.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I will be sharing my time with MP Ouellette.

What do you think should be the right day to reflect on and remember the horrors of the residential school system?

[Ry Moran]

Terri and I and others have been talking a lot about this tricky question of the right day. Rather than tell you what the right day is, we were thinking it would be good to provide you with some principles to make the tricky decision.

We can turn to many days to remember what has already happened in regard to this conversation of truth, reconciliation and healing.

For example, there was the day the agreement in principle was signed, the day the Indian residential school settlement agreement was launched, the opening and closing ceremonies of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

More recently, a number of very important days have been developed by communities to respond to this history. Orange Shirt Day in September is a very important day that is now gaining a lot of momentum across the country. National Indigenous Peoples Day has also been discussed.

I think we have to remember this day has to be about reflection, memorialization and commemoration. National Indigenous Peoples Day is very much a celebration of indigenous culture, the vibrancy and the fact we are still here, and that the policies of cultural genocide did not work.

I think Orange Shirt Day is a very important day, but Orange Shirt Day is working so very importantly right now for educators. Such powerful educational opportunities are being created by that day that I would be hesitant to interrupt that good work that's happening in schools.

I think in picking the day we also have to think about what time of year we want this to happen, how the seasons operate and change, and if we are going to be having large public gatherings, which I think is envisioned by the memorials that would be erected in the nation's capital and provincial capitals, that we reflect on what good turnout means at those events so people can attend and properly honour what's going to be happening.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Perfect.

I will give my turn over to Mr. Ouellette.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you very much. I really appreciate you coming here today, Mr. Moran and Ms. Brown.

My father went to residential school. I have uncles who were in residential school.

We're actually really getting down to the wire here with this bill. There will have to be a date for the next witnesses coming to testify. We need a date and we need it soon. I don't think we can spend a lot of time with generalities about what we should be doing. I don't think the people on the committee are going to be able to come up with that date. We're going to rely on the survivors and the organizations that are best positioned to tell us what it is we should be doing.

I have also proposed a bill about June 2, Bill C-318, put forward by survivors from Manitoba, which was the release of the TRC report. One of the issues that we face is, if we continue as indigenous peoples to only be celebrated or remembered for all the bad that happens to us, what does that create among our young people?

If we always send a message to our young people that we are simply always survivors.... I like a national aboriginal peoples day, because it's actually a day of celebration. But so few Canadians actually take the time to celebrate. Wouldn't it be lovely if we actually did take that day to highlight everything that's good about our cultures? It would be taking the time to remember, but also have a day of celebration about who we are so we can give hope to our young people. That is often a message I don't hear from organizations and people. I think it's a poor message to send to our young people, because if young people don't have hope, what type of future are we going to create for ourselves, not only among indigenous peoples but for the nation?

[Ry Moran]

I think in regard to hope, hope is seen as being an essential component of all of this, because unless we firmly believe that we have the opportunity to build a better country together, then there is no hope. We have to be able to see ourselves in the future of the country, and that includes indigenous peoples seeing themselves fully and richly in the future of this country, realizing a country wherein indigenous identities and Canadian identities aren't necessarily at conflict.

Vis-à-vis celebration and this day of memorial, though, the complicated thing is that we do have this very damaging and difficult past that we do have to remember and reflect upon. Creating opportunities for the country to understand how far we've fallen is also a liberating experience to help us realize how much more we can achieve.

[Robert-Falcon Ouellette, Liberal, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'm going to challenge you: the Northwest Territories also does both at the same time on June 21.

[Ry Moran]

Yes. I think that's right. I think that's where we really have to think about what the day actually looks like. There is a solemnity to this day that has been envisioned by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action. It is very specifically targeted at survivors and remembering this particular history, and it's very particularly focused on, unfortunately, the truth part, leading to reconciliation.

I'm not saying there are not ways to combine these. I think it's quite obvious, as we look at all indigenous gatherings or all indigenous days, that those two—what has happened and what lies in front of us—is always at tension.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

That brings you to the end of your time, but I'm hoping you'll get a chance to ask questions again.

We now go to Mr. Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, CPC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would also like to thank the witnesses for coming today.

I will start off by saying that we obviously support the principle of a set day to recognize the suffering of first nations and other indigenous peoples in residential schools. Given that it was our government that got the ball rolling, we will support the principle of the bill.

I found our discussions most interesting. I have to say that when I was Minister of Veterans Affairs, I thought along the same lines. A colleague came to tell me that he wanted to make November 11 a statutory holiday.

My time spent at the Department of Veterans Affairs left an indelible mark. I see that you are wearing your poppies. I congratulate and thank you.

I thought that my colleague had a very good idea. I then consulted the Royal Canadian Legion, stating that the day was surely one of the moments that brought the nation together. I asked representatives of the Royal Canadian Legion what they thought of my colleague's idea of presenting a bill setting out November 11 as a statutory holiday. To my great surprise, they told me that they were not in favour. I replied that it was an important day. They explained that for them, it was more important to hold commemorative services during that day.

Friday afternoon, for example, as is my wont, I will go to a school where a beautiful ceremony will be held. Jean Cauchy, a veteran, will be there, as well as members of our armed forces who were deployed in Afghanistan. The bagpipes will be played. I have to say that I am very proud that such a ceremony will take place in a Quebec school to recognize our veterans' sacrifices. I make a point of going.

When all is said and done, my colleague did not present his bill.

Mr. Moran, I heard you talk about a call to action, and I agree with you. When I was Minister of Veterans Affairs, there was also a ceremony for indigenous peoples on June 21. There is a memorial for indigenous veterans not far from here. I would see first nation members in uniform put on traditional garments. It was a beautiful ceremony, but I have to admit that there was not that same call to action. And yet we should celebrate native peoples' contribution to all aspects of our society as well as remember those tragic moments.

In short, the 11th of November is not a statutory holiday, and yet I laid some wreaths here in Ottawa, as well as in Lévis and in Quebec City. We manage to bring people together.

Ms. Brown, you said that you were proud that your child could learn this tragic history. In which way could the bill help teachers talk about this page in our history book and give it some meaning?

Yesterday, Prime Minister Trudeau reminded us of another sad page in our history book: we did not allow a boat filled with Jews asking for asylum to dock. Those Jews wound up in concentration camps.

How can we do our work as legislators properly? We clearly all want to make known the incredible experience of Ms. Brown, but how can we do it efficiently?

I wanted to share my experience with you. Ms. Brown, I would like to know what you think about this. If we don't have enough time, we could come back to it at the next round of questions. In what way can we make this tragic period known to future generations? How can we use it in a constructive manner, so that indigenous peoples can contribute to building Canada?

[Theresa Brown]

It's already been happening in schools for several years, where they have curriculum on the Indian residential schools and the true history of what happened to us in those schools. Of course, you have the people, the educators developing the curriculum, which is.... I believe the Northwest Territories was the first school district to embrace that, and they have been continuing on.

The indigenous experience is important. You mentioned the aboriginal veterans memorial. That was a huge celebration, because up until a few years ago, we didn't know that history. It's important for our children to know the true history. We've given our stories, now you need to tell us your story. That's the missing piece of it. There's more to the story than what happened in the schools. It's very broad. It embraces this whole country and every person living here.

Now, how do we mobilize it? It will take time, for sure. On Remembrance Day, not everybody goes out to lay a wreath or to watch the ceremony.

I have a fifth grandchild coming on May 3. When I'm gone, I want that child to be able to go somewhere and know the true history and lay something down in memory of me. I suffered a huge atrocity, one that no human being should ever have suffered. It's not simply about survivors. The dialogue in this country, the conversation, needs to change. I don't take it lightly when I'm referred to as simply “survivor”. I'm not that. I'm more than that but it's about that. Why we suffer is about that, and it's about everything else that transpired from that day forward, from the day we were locked up. I don't take it lightly when I'm referred to frivolously. It's a very serious matter.

I want to say that the traumatic experience is not celebrated but it must be remembered—so it doesn't happen again. It cannot happen again to anybody in this country, whether they are first nations or not.

In the spirit of reconciliation, I am hoping that we will move quickly ahead but not to say, “Make the decision today.” We cannot do that for you. We have many conversations going on, and as they come together, we'll be able to give you that day. We need some time. We're not asking for five years—maybe a month or two at the most—and then we will be able to say, “This is a day that will work for us.” We need to consider educators, school districts and all of this because they have a big role to play in educating the young children. We've done our part as survivors but we cannot go out and educate every single individual and child. As you can see, we're getting up in age. Where we can, we contribute, but we cannot do all of that.

Thank you very much for the work you have done so far.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

We now go to Mr. Nantel for seven minutes.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much to all the witnesses for being here today.

When our committee hears new witnesses, we are often surprised by the emotional impact of the testimony, whether it be our study on bringing back artifacts and human remains or in the context of this national holiday. The impact has been constant, at least in my case. I have been an MP for seven years now. In the beginning, I had set ideas about what I wanted to accomplish in Ottawa. Since becoming the MP for the residents of Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, I have been learning about the extent of the tragedy suffered by indigenous peoples. I was lucky to work closely with Romeo Saganash and to be able to count on such a friend. Generally speaking, I have seen to what extent people in Canada salve their consciences by recognizing the hardships endured. However, in doing so we create an illusion that we understand, but this is false, as the rot goes much deeper.

When we were talking about issues related to charges of simple possession of marijuana and how to deal with them, someone came out with the following statistic: in Regina, in nine cases out of ten, the persons charged with simple possession of cannabis are members of a first nation. To my mind, this means there's a certain vulnerability, that's why I'm always touched when I hear about your experiences.

I think that reconciliation attempts with Caucasians go to the heart of the bill and that reconciliation will help us attain this objective. That said, certain aspects of organizing such a day have yet to be defined, such as its theme and essential components or commemorative activities. I don't think the bill sets it all out.

The debate on the date is important. We have Orange Shirt Day in September or October, I believe. I am from Quebec, and our national holiday, Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day, marks the beginning of summer, the arrival of good weather. I think that June 21 is very much in keeping with reconciliation: it's the end of the school year, the beginning of summer, the summer solstice. I have already told my colleagues here how I was overwhelmed by a summer solstice ceremony that I witnessed with an elder on Victoria Island two years ago. We must never forget that we parliamentarians see things from a pan-Canadian vantage point. We have our own point of view. In terms of reconciliation, it would be an ideal moment to celebrate and increase awareness of indigenous peoples.

I also am reminded of a Cliff Cardinal show which ran recently in Montreal. He came to present a very modern play at the La Licorne theatre. This had nothing to do with traditional garb; the play was set in modern times.

Don't you agree that June 21 could be a fantastic opportunity to increase awareness of indigenous peoples and share your history? If there's one thing that everyone has in common in Canada, it's the happiness we feel at summer's arrival, and it would be wonderful to associate that feeling with your peoples, who have such a strong bond with nature.

[Ry Moran]

Thank you for all your very good comments, for all the good discussion.

From my perspective on this, this is all a bit tricky, to tell you the truth. I think that we should not underestimate the complexity of this conversation that we're having. We also should not limit ourselves by an either-or type scenario.

I know that decision-making is very difficult. I have a lot of sympathy for this committee that is faced with quite a challenging decision. This is not an easy thing to decide upon. However, I do want to challenge us a little bit to think not about the immediate right now, but about five, 10, 15, 20 years in this country. I don't know if it's possible or not, but is it possible to have two statutory holidays? Is it possible to have June 21 recognized as the celebration of indigenous culture, and then have another day that reflects and recognizes the severity of the treatment of indigenous peoples?

I'm not saying that this is the answer, but when we look at the future of this country, what we have to recognize is that we're going through the painful process of realizing that we have to stop doing some things in order to start doing other things. We have to take that long-term view on it, and we have to remember what these various mechanisms that we're talking about are really trying to achieve by their definition. This day that we're talking about is a day to reflect on what has happened, on the pain that has happened. That is painful stuff. It absolutely has to be tied to education, and it absolutely has to be tied to opportunities for a whole bunch of different people to have a lot of different conversations on this very painful element of Canadian history and Canadian society.

However, I'd caution us to not get stuck in the trap of “this or that”. I want us to think about what we can aspire to and what this country truly looks like when we have begun to fully realize the histories, the contributions and the rights of indigenous peoples in this country. It looks like a very different country, frankly, than we have right now. This country has a lot of change that it needs to do. Not all of this change is going to happen in our lifetime, that is for sure, but we really have to think about Canada in 2100. What are we trying to achieve collectively, and what are the pieces of information that we need to protect now? What are the memorial activities that we need to protect now? What are the celebratory activities that we need to protect now in order to realize this future?

It's not easy stuff. I don't envy your trying to make this decision. That's where we try to keep it in terms of principles and what we're trying to achieve. It's tough stuff.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Mr. Nantel, your time has come to an end.

Mr. McKay.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to both of you for appearing here today.

I have the advantage and the disadvantage of not being a regular member of this committee, so I come at it with no real forethought in that respect. On one level, this is a very simple bill: pick a day and decide if it's paid or unpaid. It's that simple. On the other side, it's incredibly complex.

My thinking, as I listened to my colleagues question you, went to your views on the state of consultation and reconciliation in this country because 5% of the population is indigenous and the other 95% is not. If we are going to have consultation and reconciliation, somehow or another those two solitudes, for want of a better term—I don't say that they are, exclusively—need to be reconciled.

I want to get your thought on some of the historical issues that are going on these days. For instance, we celebrate the Famous Five over on Parliament Hill, and rightly so. They advanced women's rights quite dramatically. However, if you examine their attitudes of that time, they're certainly not up to 21st century sensibilities. We also see things like Sir John A.'s statue being defaced in Regina and the Cornwallis statue being taken down in Halifax—possibly perfectly correct. We have all of these things that are bubbling under the surface that sometimes erupt.

From your perspective, what is the status of reconciliation? If we are to truly make this a Canadian holiday or a recognition day, how do you see it? How do you see getting the other 95% into an attitude that embraces reconciliation, rather than fights over historical injustices?

[Ry Moran]

There are a lot of big questions there.

To start, that piece that I read you from the United Nations refers directly to the state's responsibility. The country itself has a duty to recognize human rights violations that have happened.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Is this the revisionist and negativist statement?

[Ry Moran]

That's correct.

That's broadly rearticulated in a number of principles that apply, wherein countries themselves have the responsibility as responsible nation-states to be held accountable and to hold themselves to account for past wrongdoings. That is important, because there is a recognition sitting right beneath the surface in that. We have failed greatly as humanity on multiple occasions. Healthy, vibrant, national and international communities have to be built upon certain core principles of universal human rights—indigenous rights now.

Central to this is this concept of the guarantee of non-recurrence. This is the fancy international language that's used when Terri says, “I want to make sure that this never happens again to anybody anywhere.”

What we're not talking about here is changing history so that history is whitewashed. We're talking about ending the conflict. We're talking about real, true, lasting peacemaking in this country. We have been at conflict with indigenous and non-indigenous peoples, and frankly with the environment, since the dawn of time here.

This is very big-picture stuff.

When we think about the painful process of how we understand our past leaders and the construction of this country, it's not just about re-understanding what it is that they've done, but also ensuring that there's appropriate balance. That's why National Indigenous Peoples' Day is so critically important. We have to recognize that the resistance of indigenous peoples to the creation of Canada is now being seen as in the core national interest.

The Prime Minister of Canada said that there is no place in Canadian society for the ideas that gave rise to the residential schools. That says something very fundamental about those ideas that we hold very deeply that are buried down inside us. Those have to be combatted with a degree of fierceness, frankly, and rooted out. They are very deeply buried inside us, at the individual, collective, societal and national level.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

How do you reconcile the notion that some indigenous peoples and groups, in effect, refused to celebrate Canada's 150th birthday? They felt that the construct of Canada is an imposition and a rejection of everything indigenous. It was a total anathema to them.

If that's true, how do you, in effect, get past that point, where there's an adjustment on the part of the 95% and an adjustment on the part of the 5%...or is that just a bridge too far?

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

That's a complicated question. I'm going to warn you that you have about 45 seconds.