Evidence of meeting #144 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was language.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Onowa McIvor  Associate Professor, Indigenous Education, University of Victoria, As an Individual
Blaire Gould  Director of Programs and Services, Mi'kmaw Kina'matnewey
Wayne Long  Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.
Steven Blaney  Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, CPC
David Yurdiga  Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC
Chief Edward John  Political Executive Member, First Nations Summit
Graham Andrews  Seventh-Generation Michif Knowledge-Keeper, Member of the Métis Nation, As an Individual
Cathy McLeod  Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, CPC

3:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

Welcome to the 144th meeting of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Today, we are continuing the study of Bill C-91, An Act respecting Indigenous languages.

To begin, we have present with us Blaire Gould, Director of Programs and Services, Mi'kmaw Kina'matnewey. By video conference, we have Onowa McIvor, Associate Professor of Indigenous Education, from the University of Victoria.

Perhaps we can begin with the video conference first, just in case we run into technical difficulties.

We will begin with you, Ms. McIvor. Go ahead, please.

3:20 p.m.

Onowa McIvor Associate Professor, Indigenous Education, University of Victoria, As an Individual

[Witness spoke in Cree]

Greetings to you all.

My name is Onowa McIvor. I am a Swampy Cree woman. My family is from the Norway House and Cross Lake Cree nations in northern Manitoba, Treaty 5.

I offer gratitude and acknowledgement to the WSANEC and the Lkwugen people, whose land I am on today.

I am living proof of the indigenous resilience of our people. My grandparents were speakers of our language but did not pass our language down to my mother and her siblings, and so she did not have this gift to offer to me. And yet, here I am, a language warrior, recoverer and scholar of indigenous language revitalization, because of their strength and resilience. I come to this work from a deeply personal place, as many indigenous people do, and this family and community history drives my scholarly life.

I believe in the power of policy and what it can achieve, and I thank you for the opportunity to address you today.

I have four main points I would like to speak to, and others I have included in my written submission that I hope will be considered by the committee in that form.

The first point relates to UNDRIP. There is a direct contradiction between the preamble, which includes, with clause 3, the Government of Canada's commitment to implementation, and paragraph 5(g), which shifts to the more obscure wording of “advance the achievement of the objectives”.

First, I would recommend that the bill match the preamble and add UNDRIP as paragraph 6(b): “the Government of Canada recognizes the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples as it relates to Indigenous languages”, with the additional specific reference to articles 13 and 14.

The point of adding article 14 to the UNDRIP clause is not only for consistency with paragraph 5(f), which refers to the TRC calls to action and names the specific calls to action, but it also leads to my next point, which relates to the responsibilities around education.

I have included UNDRIP articles 13 and 14 for reference but will just highlight a couple of lines that refer to my next point.

Article 14 says, “Indigenous peoples have the right to establish and control their educational systems and institutions providing education in their own languages”. Article 14(3) says, “...indigenous individuals, particularly children, including those living outside their communities [have the right] to an education in their own culture and provided in their own language.” This leads to my second point about rights protection and the link to education.

Specifically in paragraph 5(e), and in clauses 8 and 9, there is concerning language that equates the federal government's obligations to respect “the powers and jurisdictions of the provinces” with upholding “the rights of Indigenous peoples”. These two obligations should not be equated as one. The rights of indigenous peoples are pre-existing and supersede the federal government's obligation to comply with “the powers and jurisdictions of the provinces”.

Besides the legal and rights-based arguments for this, it's an important practical implication regarding education established and controlled by indigenous people and provided in their own language, as referred to in UNDRIP article 14.

One of the critical areas of damage to our languages in Canada has been schools, but increasingly it's one of the areas that we look to as a solution, especially as the place where many of our children spend six to seven hours a day, five days a week, 10 months of the year.

To bring clarity to this point, I would like to refer to Jordan's principle. This is in no way to bring disrespect to this tragic event, but rather to emphasize the parallel jurisdictional complexities that exist in the education sector as it relates to indigenous peoples, as was acknowledged to exist in the health sector between federal and provincial governments. Both instances have to do with indigenous children's rights. In this case, it is about the life and death of our languages, and I would argue that the situation and potential effects are equally serious.

The basis for Jordan's principle is the memory of the late Jordan River Anderson, a five-year-old boy from Norway House Cree Nation, my nation, in Manitoba, who died waiting for the care he needed. His care was caught in disputes between the federal and provincial governments, which could not agree on who should pay for his care.

These disputes are rooted in various agreements, but are essentially founded in the Crown's fiduciary responsibilities to indigenous people. The reality that Canada divided itself into provinces and territories and devolved some health responsibilities and, in this case, education, particularly off-reserve education, to those entities does not supersede or replace these pre-existing agreements or indigenous rights therein. The reality of our demographics is also that the majority of our people do not live on reserve, or in the case of the territories, and for indigenous people, reserves have no meaning.

This is a separate but circular argument for the changes to the above-mentioned sections, to separate the federal government's obligations to recognize and affirm indigenous rights, apart from and before they are concerned with delegated provincial jurisdictions, and also to ensure that UNDRIP, and particularly article 14 as it relates to the effects on education, is affirmed in this bill.

Third, creating lists that are neither summative nor exhaustive is detractive and potentially dangerous. I want to highlight paragraphs 5(b) and 23(e), and clause 25. All include lists of sorts in the bill. Lists convey a sense of comprehensiveness, as in, “These things are important or will be supported.” They are often listed in order of importance.

None of these lists appear to me to have been developed by indigenous language revitalization scholars with a deep understanding of the field, its current state and foreseeable directions. I would strongly encourage eliminating these lists, or an earnest revision. I've included suggestions for revision in my written submission, and I would be happy to consult further on this issue if desired by the committee.

My fourth and final point, for my opening comments, references clause 24, regarding research to be undertaken by the office of the commissioner. As somebody who makes their living as a researcher, and who believes very deeply in the power of research, I want to highlight for the committee that we are in a new era regarding research. Indigenous communities will no longer tolerate being researched. The tri-council funding agencies are nearing the end of a two-year consultation process on how to enact the calls to action relating to research by and with indigenous peoples.

I would suggest that clause 24 come in line with what has already been established by indigenous peoples, as well as the tri-council funding agencies, as acceptable. I've included a simple suggested revision, to add the words “indigenous-led” or “indigenous-governed”. I have additional suggestions in my written submission for your consideration.

In my closing comments, I would just say that I am very pleased to see this bill come forward, after 50 years. It is a form of what we've been fighting for. It is a bill, as the minister has said, that we can at least make changes to in the future. The time is now. The time is actually overdue, and there does seem to be cross-party political will to see this through, which is refreshing. However, if this bill is successful, we will live with this act for at least five quite formative years, and possibly longer, as it can be difficult to convince new people to change a bill once it's initially approved.

It is in this spirit that I ask you to consider my recommendations and advice herein.

Ekosi, hai hai.

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

Now we will go to Blaire Gould, please.

3:25 p.m.

Blaire Gould Director of Programs and Services, Mi'kmaw Kina'matnewey

Good evening.

[Witness spoke in Mi'kmaq]

I am Blaire Gould, and I come from the Mi'kmaw territory, specifically the Eskasoni First Nation. I am a first-language speaker, born and raised in a language-rich community of Eskasoni First Nation. I represent a generation in my community where speaking Mi'kmaw was normal. Additionally, I have four beautiful children, who are also raised in the language, but in their generations, speaking Mi'kmaw is not what it was in my generation, and actually only a handful of children from each of their generations are speakers.

I represent Mi'kmaw Kina'matnewey. This is a team of unified chiefs, staff, parents and educators who advocate on behalf of and represent the educational interests of our communities, and we protect the educational and Mi'kmaw language rights of the Mi'kmaw people, as legislated in 1998 under the Mi'kmaq Education Act. The importance of revitalizing and reclaiming our languages is essential to who we are as indigenous people. There have been deliberate ways to remove our languages from us, as people, which includes our identities, our cultures and our well-being.

In every location across this land, we visit the respective territories of the original people, whose land we are on, and know the richness and diversity of their languages, traditions and cultures. Today, I sit here on Algonquin territory and acknowledge the Algonquin people, as a visitor and ally with great respect from Mi'ikma'ki.

In my territory, there are great efforts to revitalize and reclaim languages. Languages have been a high priority within our leadership and our Sante' Mawio'mi, which is the traditional government of the Mi'kmaw people. In the last 13 years, Nova Scotia's language-speaking population has significantly declined. In 1999, the generation of 10- to 19-year-olds was 70%, while 13 years later, the same generation was assessed at 20%. To see a decline in our speaking populations within the younger generations is alarming.

There have been measures to reverse those declines, but with no adequate or sustained funding, it is very hard to do. The effort to establish languages back to normalization, as they were once spoken in all domains, is essential to the foundations of this bill. For normalization, we must embrace the evolution of our languages to move forward. I see clear efforts to respect the rights of self-determination and see this moving a step forward in reconciliation.

I would like to highlight clause 24 of the bill, and more specifically intellectual property. There's one amendment I'd like to see, that intellectual property rests with the nations and not individuals or institutions.

I see this bill as a foundational bill, and I respect the people who have spoken before me on those recommendations for amendments. I have been fully briefed on those conversations here today, but I am just here to reiterate the intellectual property clause.

Wela'lin.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

Thank you.

We're now going to begin our question and answer period. We will begin with Mr. Long for seven minutes, please.

3:30 p.m.

Wayne Long Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon to my colleagues, and good afternoon to our witnesses this afternoon. That was very good testimony.

I'm going to start with you, Ms. Gould. My riding is Saint John—Rothesay, in southern New Brunswick, and unfortunately we don't have a strong indigenous culture that really thrives in Saint John. That is a shame, because the city has a tremendous history and heritage that involves our indigenous people.

The decline that you mentioned in youth, with respect to indigenous languages, is stunning. I agree. Can you just give us that decline again? You gave some percentages. What were they again?

3:30 p.m.

Director of Programs and Services, Mi'kmaw Kina'matnewey

Blaire Gould

We initiated a study done by Mi'kmaw Kina'matnewey. In 1999, we assessed the speaking population of 10- to 19-year-olds to be at 70%. Thirteen years later, in 2015, we assessed the generation again, and they were at 20%.

3:30 p.m.

Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.

Wayne Long

Is it safe to say that without Bill C-91, without an investment from government, that would continue to decline? Do you think that it would drop right off?

3:35 p.m.

Director of Programs and Services, Mi'kmaw Kina'matnewey

Blaire Gould

We have, of course, considered both the linear decline and the exponential decline, and have concluded that 13 years from 2015 there will be no speaking populations from zero to 29.

3:35 p.m.

Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.

Wayne Long

Here's my question. I also sit on HUMA. We talk about national housing strategies, and government money that the feds will flow through to provinces, and the provinces working with cities and so on. It's critically important, obviously, that we get this right. As we said before, no bill is perfect, but this is a tremendous opportunity for indigenous peoples and for Canada.

How would you see us best proceeding with this? Knowing that there are indigenous communities, cities, provinces, organizations and the federal government, how do we best let that money flow? How would it be best spent and targeted?

3:35 p.m.

Director of Programs and Services, Mi'kmaw Kina'matnewey

Blaire Gould

Thank you for your question.

You talk about provinces and borders of our communities. As a Mi'kmaw, I know no boundaries. My territory spans four provinces. I think that's very important in the step of recognizing who we are as language groups. I represent speakers in New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland and Quebec. Each of these groups, so to speak, does amazing work in efforts of revitalization.

One thing I would like to see in terms of accessibility is that notion of long-term, sustained funding. I see this bill as being something that guarantees within legislation support for languages and the efforts of communities and organizations that have that mandate to continue to work. What I would like to further see in this bill is statutory funding.

3:35 p.m.

Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.

Wayne Long

Okay.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we've heard there are 90 different languages across Canada. I'm looking for you to give us a road map of how you feel we would best proceed. Is it by signing bilateral agreements with each province, and it goes from there? Is it by us trying to attach some strings to the federal money to make sure it's allocated properly? Should the provinces allocate that money directly to kindergartens? How do you see that rolling out?

3:35 p.m.

Director of Programs and Services, Mi'kmaw Kina'matnewey

Blaire Gould

I see language being part of all domains, going back to that normalization piece. Where I see this money being a flow-through is through the national organization my colleagues have spoken about before at this table, allowing for a national body—a part of government aside from the politics—to really be the distributor of funds.

It's about readiness. Respectfully, not.... Many communities are doing the right things in terms of stepping forward in the right way for languages and reclamation—

3:35 p.m.

Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.

Wayne Long

I'll just jump in.

If there are 90 languages across Canada right now, should they all be funded? Do you feel the purpose is to preserve all of them?

3:35 p.m.

Director of Programs and Services, Mi'kmaw Kina'matnewey

Blaire Gould

Absolutely.

Speaking for my own language, I don't see us—as a population of 30,000 or so—as any less important than those of higher populations or significantly lower populations. There is a need for all.

3:35 p.m.

Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.

Wayne Long

Yes, I agree.

Ms. McIvor, do you want to chime in and give us some input as to how you would like to see this roll out with respect to funding through the feds to the province, to communities and to indigenous communities?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

You have about a minute.

3:35 p.m.

Associate Professor, Indigenous Education, University of Victoria, As an Individual

Onowa McIvor

I think part of what your question is pointing to is an extreme lack of infrastructure. That has not existed in Canada for indigenous languages. If you look at any other sector—fisheries, economic development, child welfare, housing—there has been a long period, decades or a century or more, of funding, people, good minds and offices that have been established. Policies have created a road map that enables people to work together and make decisions.

I think that at the root of your question, and what is important to point out, is that essentially what you're uncovering is this void, this hole we have created. Language has always been the poor second cousin to everything else. It's always done off the side of people's desks. It's tacked onto education. It's tacked onto this, and it's tacked onto that.

Not to put any words in Blaire's mouth—she's my close colleague—but part of it is what Blaire and other people are talking about with respect to this national body. Part of what we're fighting for—and this is in my written submission—is the time and space, as indigenous people, to build that infrastructure.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to cut you off right there, but you might be able to bring that out through your answers to other questions.

3:40 p.m.

Saint John—Rothesay, Lib.

Wayne Long

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin

I will now give the floor to Mr. Blaney for seven minutes, please.

February 21st, 2019 / 3:40 p.m.

Steven Blaney Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, CPC

I could let Ms. Onowa continue her remarks.

What do you mean by infrastructure for language and this organization?

3:40 p.m.

Associate Professor, Indigenous Education, University of Victoria, As an Individual

Onowa McIvor

Part of what we're arguing for is a national organization, which is different from a languages commissioner. I don't think people are in opposition to that. They understand what it's for, but it's not exactly what indigenous people were advocating for in the consultation process that many of us were part of over the last two years.

What we're advocating for is a national body that would have regional hubs. It would take time. We would need a little bit of time. I know that we want to get a budget out and people are asking whom to write the cheques to. There's a reality to that, but indigenous people need to drive this process. We need a representational advisory group that can provide those answers for you, and that needs to happen fairly quickly.

To try to put more of a point to your.... I've been at these tables long enough to know that people need answers. What I would say more simply is the answers are going to need to be nuanced. There is no simple answer. It can't be just bilateral agreements with all the provinces and territories, because language work has not had the time to establish itself that way. You'll get push-back and people will say, “The territory is not ready for that” or “Are you going to do it per capita?” or “Those folks are going to miss out”, etc. There needs to be a nuanced funding plan.

There are some areas in Canada that are ready for that. Some solutions are clearer than others. Some regions need a little bit more time to work out, and there needs to be a different urban strategy because of the demographics that I spoke about. There needs to be a separate urban strategy that's different from the geographically specific indigenous strategies.

3:40 p.m.

Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, CPC

Steven Blaney

Witnesses from British Columbia have told us about proposed investments made by the Government of British Columbia to support languages.

Can you tell us about the impact of the measures put in place by the Government of British Columbia? There are certainly parts that we are trying to replicate on a national scale.

3:40 p.m.

Associate Professor, Indigenous Education, University of Victoria, As an Individual

Onowa McIvor

B.C. is the leader in the country. It has been for a long time. Part of that has to do with more than 50% of indigenous languages being found here, but the provincial government has stepped up. It has added $50 million to the table.

The impacts have been, to use Blaire's words, exponential growth in initiatives and communities being able to step forward at the stage they are at. There is no one right answer for everyone. Some communities are at the stage of planning. They just need time to figure out what the right thing is. Other communities, like Blaire's, have their strategies figured out. Kahnawà:ke is the same. There are many communities that have decades-long immersion programs, so they need additional funding to better support the impactful things they are already doing.

The negative side, I would say, of the funding situation in B.C. is that it's so rapid. To go from nothing to all this money when we don't have that infrastructure.... This is what I was speaking about to the other member. We need time to develop, both nationally and regionally.