Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 25th, 2019

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Wickham, I've been struggling with clause 24 a little. The way the legislation reads, it is a “may”. I know other witnesses have expressed the same concern that you have expressed. The way I read it is it would not allow the office of the commissioner to arbitrarily move forward. It just enables them to do it if it's appropriate, and I would presume, according to full protocol and respect for IP, etc.

Are you saying it's not okay the way it's written? That's not how I read it. I thought the “may” just provided flexibility for the communities to move forward in partnership if they wanted to. Could you share your concerns there a little more?

[Jennifer Wickham]

Yes. The concern is that our communities have been researched and researched, and we don't have access to that information. That information is not implemented in our communities in a meaningful way, and so we're really cautious when something like this is written into a bill, where the other bodies would be given access to our communities and our language itself, so any resources that are developed out of that or.... We don't want to see anything archived or put away that has to do with our language. Our people should be building capacity within our communities, being able to do that research and store it as we see fit or implement it in our community as we see fit.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I absolutely agree with that, but do you think “may” allows them to do that without the permission of the communities involved? I saw it as perhaps enabling if the communities chose.

[Jennifer Wickham]

Maybe that needs to be more clearly written.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

Both witnesses had several comments in terms of what you believe needed to be done to improve this legislation. Let's say that the government chooses not to move any amendments. Do you believe this legislation should be supported as is?

Let's have Mr. Smith and then Ms. Wickham.

[Duane Ningaqsiq Smith]

I would prefer to see areas where it can be improved upon. Unfortunately, due to the time and the situation we're in, at the very least we would like to see something put in place so that we have a tool that we can use. It needs a lot of work, in my view, but nothing is ever perfect when it first starts out.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Okay.

It's not perfect, but you did indicate it was a step. Obviously, it's the government that chooses which amendments it will accept or not accept. Do you believe it's supportable as it is if they choose not to?

[Duane Ningaqsiq Smith]

There's an opportunity for it to be improved and we'd like to see it improved upon.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

Chief Mitchell.

[Jennifer Wickham]

Are you saying if there is no opportunity to make any changes on this bill in the future...?

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Legislation always has the opportunity for changes, but we're doing intensive committee meetings right now. We're getting lots of recommendations.

If it stays exactly like it is without any changes, do you believe it's supportable?

[Jennifer Wickham]

The short answer—

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

You're not a politician if you give a short one.

[Jennifer Wickham]

I'm not a politician.

I think that the consultation process with communities was really rushed for this bill. There were communities that weren't able to be part of the consultation in B.C. and in the north. I think there are quite a few things on our list that need to be clarified and-or changed. As Mr. Smith stated, this is a very positive step. I think that as long as the government is open and willing to make some changes in the future if it doesn't happen right away.... Obviously we would prefer these changes to happen before it is passed. I do realize that the government is in a bit of a time crunch right now. We can be optimistic.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Good. Thank you.

Mr. Smith, I want to go back. You had three recommendations. You only had a chance to very briefly talk about them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

You have a half a minute.

[Cathy McLeod, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I think I'll have another round and I can get back to you.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Jolibois, you have seven minutes.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Good morning.

Thank you to both organizations for coming and presenting to us.

Your information is very important and what you said today validates my thinking in various areas.

Where I come from, within the Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River riding, the majority of my constituents.... The majority of the children, Métis and first nations, attend the public system. I feel nervous about how they are left out in this discussion, and your bringing it forward validates that thinking. I see across Canada that we need to have that discussion more and more.

Having said that, as I'm listening to your answers, how can we ensure that we push the government a bit further for the recommendations that you bring forward? We can try. I do like to see some changes in the legislation.

This is to both, if you can.

[Jennifer Wickham]

Well, I think that might be a question for you all. How can we push the government to make that part of legislation?

If the government is really serious about reconciliation with indigenous communities, I think this bill being put forward in good faith in partnership with indigenous communities and taking our feedback seriously and implementing it would be a good step forward.

As far as what we can do to ensure that our children are not left behind, I think that if we can include specific language around immersion available to our children, both inside and outside of the community.... As you said, within the public school system, the majority of our members, our house members and our clan members, are spread out. They're not necessarily living on the reserve or within the 22,000 square kilometre territory boundaries.

We have a large population of Wet'suwet'en people and children who are living in other places, such as Prince George and Vancouver. If we can push for Witsuwit'en language to become an official language within its territory boundaries, I think that is going to increase the chances of our children being able to access the language. If it's then recognized within B.C. as an official language within its territories, we would be able to have Witsuwit'en immersion school available to our membership in areas like Prince George and Vancouver.

Currently, if you have as few as 15 children from a minority language group in an area, it's enough to start an immersion school, and we would like the same for Witsuwit'en.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

Mr. Smith.

[Duane Ningaqsiq Smith]

Very briefly, I would suggest that you take into consideration the recommendations that we as well as others are putting forward in improving the bill right away. This is the opportunity for it to be done.

Second, look at how we can work together again to develop an implementation process with each other so that we can start to identify areas where this bill might be lacking, as we move forward in regard to enacting it and developing operations on the ground within each of our communities so that we can work on the implementation of the different areas this bill is supposed to address.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

Thinking back to some of the witnesses who have come forward, even National Chief Perry Bellegarde was here as a witness, as well as Mr. Clément Chartier from the Métis National Council. They are both pushing really hard for this legislation to move forward as is.

I am hearing from various groups that changes are recommended. As I think back to the discussion that we were having, one piece is the discussion around the provinces. I know that B.C. and Nova Scotia have really invested quite a bit of time and energy in the languages in their provinces, and I'd like to see other provinces and territories do the same.

To both organizations, have you had discussions with other organizations and people across Canada about the children who are attending public schools across Canada?

[Jennifer Wickham]

The Witsuwit'en Language and Culture Society uses a lot of the immersion methods that are also used in Secwepemc territory with Secwepemctsin, the language in Chase and the Kamloops area. That has been a really beneficial relationship where we can share resources.

They have an immersion school in Secwepemc territory, and they have developed a lot of different methods that we are able to use in our language nest and also in the elementary school that is in Witset. The language teacher there meets with them regularly.

There aren't a lot of examples or programs that we are able to liaise with or collaborate with, but we have definitely built relationships with people who are out there doing work similar to ours, and we are trying to move forward with them.

Our elementary school is going to be developing online games using the Witsuwit'en language, and that's being modelled off the school in Secwepemc territory.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.