Canadian Heritage Committee on June 9th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Rivard—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I have given you.... Come on, guys.

We have now done a nine-minute piece on this session, but I didn't want to stop Mr. Rivard, who is the most entrancing witness we have had in a long time. I wanted you to keep on. Yes, indeed.

We now have Mr. Van Loan, for the Conservatives.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

I first wanted to ask you about the evolution you talked about taking place over the past 50 years. How much of that has been driven by, shall we say, market forces or the need for museums to achieve economic sustainability?

[René Rivard]

I don't know. I can't tell you by percentage, but I must say that there are two currents of ideas in the curatorship of museums. Some are quite resistant to marketing forces, because I guess they believe it will make culture the servant of money. On the other side, most managers and museum directors agree that marketing is an important force that should be strengthened. It should be strengthened, however, in my opinion, not only through marketing of the museum but through partnerships between the museum and the region to try to develop cultural tourism.

France does that quite well, as does Sweden. I don't know too much about the western provinces, but I think in Quebec it could be done better, and possibly in the Maritimes, although some good efforts have been made there.

Marketing is not something to be overlooked; it is part of the tool kit of museums. However, there's not enough money in the museum world to do proper and good marketing. I think we rely on the local newspapers. Most museums call in the newspaper man to try to get into the news or to be heard of. They never pay for advertising. They rarely pay for marketing ventures with provincial or other organizations. I think improvement is needed there.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

I more or less got the answer there to my next question, which was going to be about marketing and the fact that in all these programs we hear about and in all the government funding, none of it's ever for marketing; it's for everything but marketing.

Going back to the question I asked about changes in the types of museums and what they do, do you think that has been market driven in an effort to drive traffic, if you will?

[René Rivard]

On some occasions it has been, yes; in other cases, a little.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

I was going to say “in contrast to”, or is it the museum gods saying this is how things should be changed?

[René Rivard]

Excuse me?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

I said the museum gods, the people who are great experts. Is it a top-down effort or is it market-driven?

[René Rivard]

That's a difficult one.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

You've left him speechless.

[René Rivard]

I don't think I can answer.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Another question I think you almost came close to, which I was surprised to hear from some of the museums I went to, is that one problem is that there are simply too many museums in Canada. Maybe some hard thought should be given to reducing the number through mergers and simply accepting that some can't go on.

[René Rivard]

There are many museums in Canada. When I started 50 years ago, there were half as many as there are today. Many were created in the 1970s and 1980s, especially heritage sites or thematic museums that were developed mostly along tourist routes.

This is a natural phenomenon. If you look at statistics from other countries, you'll see that Sweden, for example, developed over 400 open-air museums in the 1920s. There were not even five million people in Sweden at the time. The Swedes museumize whatever becomes obsolete. They museumized agriculture in the 1920s, following the first one, Skansen, which was developed by Hazelias in the 1890s. Now they're museumizing their industry. They're making museums of glass, of crystal-blowing factories.

We don't have that reflex, but this did not prevent us from developing. The reflex is more for us to save what's local, what belongs to our roots and to our fibres, and try to keep them to show them to later generations.

Do we have too many museums? Yes, for the means we have to preserve and conserve their collections. As you know, most collections are not well preserved. Some objects are lost through bad storage.

What I proposed to the provincial government in Quebec was to create a conservation centre or places where the small museums could send their objects to be preserved, as they do in Norway. Then a change starts. Rather than being bogged down by their obsession with collection, the museums start to go into the subject of museology and the idea of museums. They start to develop more social goals for their museums, rather than just heritage conservation. That has helped.

For example, in Trondheim, Norway, it's unbelievable what they have done in the last 20 years in the museum once the state took away the responsibility of preserving their collection. Norway has only 5.5 million people. Okay, they have money. Oil is making a difference. Still, they have as many museums in Norway as we have in Quebec; in fact, I think they have more, and they're more pertinent than many of our museums.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Monsieur Rivard.

Now we will go to Mr. Nantel for the NDP.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mr. Rivard, thank you very much for your presentation. I think everyone is amazed at your knowledge and how you have expressed it.

I urge everyone to visit your site, which is wonderful.

It is concerning that you must be an insider to know that you exist despite the fact that you are so active. Personally, I am very familiar with the Musée des maîtres et artisans in Quebec and Pierre Wilson, who is in charge of that museum. You are a revelation for me.

Thank you, Mr. Van Loan. I’m not sure how you have heard of Mr. Rivard, but it is absolutely fabulous to see how inspiring he is.

Earlier, I had this question for the officials from the Department of Canadian Heritage. I mentioned the expertise that needs to be shared. The government departments and agencies are mandated to support development. When it's the industry, it's the industry, but it is important to play a role in the background. When we talk about small museums, which are being studied, we hear a lot about amateurs and people who want to do a good job. In that case, expertise, guidance and recommendations are appropriate. Do you think that people from the Department of Canadian Heritage should go to the ICOM conference, for example?

You talked about your co-operation with the Government of Quebec. Have people like you been excluded from departments? Your expertise is remarkable, but does anyone working for the museums assistance program at Canadian Heritage have one-quarter of your expertise in the field?

[René Rivard]

I won't be able to speak to the last part of your question.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[René Rivard]

My first job was with the federal government. From 1970 to 1973, I was the director of National Historic Sites of Canada for Ontario and Quebec.

In 1973, the government created Parks Canada, and I became the director of the interpretation and museology service for Quebec. We decided to do things differently because decentralization had taken place. There were three of us at the start and, a year and a half later, there were 35 of us. I recruited the best exhibition directors.

I drew inspiration from an American named Alma Wittlin. She wrote a book, published in 1970, that describes 16 points for improving museums.

Her book contains four very interesting points. In any type of museum expression, three people and three professions must be represented. First, there must be an expert on collections. Second, there must be someone who knows how to put together the exhibition. Third, there must be someone who can communicate, who knows how to write texts and who knows the approach that each audience needs. We don't put stuffed birds all in a row on little tripods if we want to talk about biodiversity, for example, or scientific topics. This inspired me, and we worked with that in mind.

I left Parks Canada in 1980 for personal reasons. The phone started ringing, and I was asked to be a consultant.

In 1978, I had $6 million for exhibitions at Parks Canada sites in the Quebec region. Look at how much they have today. It's probably close to zero. And all the exhibitions that were created are now falling apart.

They are falling apart.

The terrible effect of the years took its toll. Unless they are used and shown, the exhibitions deteriorate. It's like an old car that eventually ends up in the dump.

I think that's what needs to be kept in mind.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

You've made it clear that we have moved from museums of objects and museums of subjects to museums of ideas.

[René Rivard]

That's not the case for all museums.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I mean that these are big global trends. For example, if we have the Abitibi-Témiscamingue mineralogical museum in Malartic, it would be surprising to find information about democracy in Nigeria.

[René Rivard]

Basically, but we can, for example, talk about what the miners earned on the work plan through their demands and the challenges they faced. We can also talk about the challenges that the companies had to face to become prosperous.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I think you have really given the committee some momentum and we are going to refer to a sort of “René Rivard Book” for certain matters.

At some point, our study will move to the recommendations stage. I don't want to take any shortcuts, but I would like to know what approach and what major changes you would like to see in our recommendations.