Evidence of meeting #26 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was digital.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Cindy Simard  Vice-Chair, Information, Télé Inter-Rives Ltée, CIMT-TV / CKRT-TV, Télé Inter-Rives Ltée
Pierre Harvey  Director, CHAU-TV, Télé Inter-Rives Ltée
Robyn Smith  Editor-in-Chief, The Tyee
Jean-Philippe Nadeau  Director, Information, CIMT-TV / CKRT-TV Rivière-du-Loup, Télé Inter-Rives Ltée
Michelle Hoar  Director, Publishing and Advertising, The Tyee
Robert Picard  Professor, Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism, University of Oxford, As an Individual

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning. I note that we have witnesses here today, some on video and some in person. We are studying, as you well know, the access of local communities to Canadian stories and Canadian experiences across the country with regard to news and other information—Canadian content, so to speak.

What happens when media have been consolidated? What is the impact? Has it been good? Has it been bad? We're looking at all the platforms, including digital. We're looking at some solutions to this and ways in which we can enhance Canadian content and access to it, including news.

We welcome this morning Télé Inter-Rives Ltée, with Mr. Harvey, director, Mr. Nadeau, director, and Ms. Simard, vice-chair. From The Tyee, we have Michelle Hoar, co-founder, and Robyn Smith, editor-in-chief, all the way from sunny Vancouver.

Here's how it works. To present, you have 10 minutes as a group. At the end of 10 minutes, we will open it up to questions from the members of the committee.

You can decide whether it's Mr. Harvey, Mr. Nadeau, or Ms. Simard who will speak, or if all three of you are going to divide the 10 minutes.

Ms. Smith and Ms. Hoar, you can also make that decision between you.

Please begin.

11 a.m.

Cindy Simard Vice-Chair, Information, Télé Inter-Rives Ltée, CIMT-TV / CKRT-TV, Télé Inter-Rives Ltée

Thank you very much.

Good morning, everyone.

Madam Chair, members of Parliament and committee members, my name is Cindy Simard and I am vice-president for news of four Télé Inter-Rives ltée local television stations owned by the Simard family. I am now 40 years old and was a journalist myself. I am currently the main local newsreader for CIMT-TVA, our station in Rivière-du-Loup.

With me here is Pierre Harvey, general manager of station CHAU-TV, affiliated with TVA, in Carleton-sur-Mer. Pierre has worked there for 40 years.

Let me also introduce Jean-Philippe Nadeau, who is news director at CIMT-TVA and CKRT-TV, which is affiliated with Radio-Canada.

Madam Chair, I would also have liked to say a few words in English, but my English isn't quite good enough and it would take too long. And that's even though my mother is an anglophone and I was actually born in Ontario, but my English isn't fluent.

Our family has been involved in broadcasting for more than half a century. My grandfather, Luc Simard, founded the first television station in Rivière-du-Loup, affiliated with Radio-Canada. The launch of that first television station took place in the early 1960s, when the Government of Canada, through Société Radio-Canada, needed small private entrepreneurs in the regions to provide Canadians with their first television service. In 1978 and 1986, my father Marc Simard answered the call from the CRTC and founded our station affiliated with TVA, followed by a station affiliated with TQS, known today as Vtélé.

Our television stations today serve all of eastern Quebec, including the Gaspé and the North Shore, as well as the province of New Brunswick, where there are about 235,000 francophones, most of them Acadians. The whole market served by our stations represents about 650,000 people.

As they did during the Let's Talk TV consultation, Canadians who participated in the online forum stated unequivocally that they considered local news to be very important and their principal source of news and information. In a survey, 81% of Canadians stated that local news on television is important to them.

In the Let's Talk TV discussion forums, many Canadians spoke about the importance of local news. Most of the participants said that they relied first and foremost on televised news to remain informed of issues of public interest, and that they used newspapers and the Internet only as a complement to televised news.

Our four local television stations spend nearly $3.5 million every year just on their local news service. It is the largest single expense of all our television stations. For nearly 60 years, since television came to Canada, local television stations in all regions of the country, except the main television networks, have had only one source of income, the sale of advertising.

Unlike the specialty channels, the major broadcasting distribution undertakings, the BDUs, the cable and satellite distributors, capture our local television signals and pay us nothing to distribute and resell them to their subscribers. While this goes on, besides the subscription revenues paid by consumers, the specialty channels benefit from additional revenues from advertising. And they do so without any obligation to produce local programming and local news in Canada's regions. That is one of the reasons that conventional television is in a precarious situation, in addition to the advent of the Internet.

The new media are now an essential supplement to our radio stations. We consider the new media to be an additional window for broadcasting our local news. However, our websites generate virtually no revenue. It is television advertising revenue that pays the costs of our websites.

In North America, the websites most consulted are those operated by the major broadcasters like CNN, ABC, NBC or, in Canada, CBC, TVA, CTV, etc. That is because of their capacity to deliver news produced by professionals. The same is true in our regions, where the local news sites of our stations are also those most consulted, because of the accuracy and reliability of their content and the trusted reputation of our stations.

In every case, whether in the major population centres or out in the regions, all the money necessary to provide content for and operate the websites comes from advertising revenues from television or specialized news channels. Needless to say, operating Internet websites is extremely expensive.

11:05 a.m.

Pierre Harvey Director, CHAU-TV, Télé Inter-Rives Ltée

In the United States, the FCC, the equivalent of our CRTC, has for all practical purposes forced cable and satellite distributors to pay local television stations for the right to distribute their signals, just like the specialty channels.

In Canada unfortunately, and in spite of the CRTC's desire to introduce such a practice, some of the large cable and satellite television distributors objected to this practice. A three-two judgment rendered several years ago by the Supreme Court of Canada determined that this practice was inapplicable, based on certain provisions of the Copyright Act in Canada.

In our opinion, it would have been more logical for the conventional television stations to obtain subscription revenues for their signals, which would have improved the financial situation of our whole industry.

One solution would be for the Government of Canada to make the necessary amendments to the Copyright Act to allow conventional television stations to obtain subscription revenues.

Given the financial difficulties facing conventional and local television stations, the CRTC made the best decision in the circumstances on June 15 when it announced the Independent Local News Fund, the ILNF, using the same financial resources available within the broadcasting system.

We approve and support this fund and thank the Commission for having established it, so that Canadians can continue, as they wish to, to benefit from very high quality local news.

However, this amount may turn out to be inadequate to satisfy all needs in the future. The Broadcasting Act obliges distributors to pay 5% of their revenue for the production of Canadian programming. We believe that this amount ought to be subject to increases by the CRTC if maintaining local news makes it necessary.

Finally, we would like to emphasize that it is absolutely vital for our four local television stations to maintain their affiliation with the three main French television networks: TVA, Radio-Canada and V.

Ninety-five per cent of our programs come from these three major networks. Seventy per cent of our revenues are from network advertising sales. Without network affiliation, it would be absolutely impossible to operate a local television station in the regions.

In a decision handed down in 2007 involving certain aspects of the regulatory framework for over-the-air television, the CRTC stated:

The Commission considers that independent broadcasters play an important role in providing local programming outside of major markets. In order to provide local programming of high quality, they need the financial strength that results from reasonable affiliation agreements and financial support.

After more than 50 years of experience in broadcasting, we ask the Government of Canada, through the Ministry of Canadian Heritage, to maintain and reinforce all the powers of the CRTC, and to do so in the interest of all Canadians, so that they can have access to high quality local news. We want to emphasize that that organization is the sole guardian of Canada's broadcasting system.

Finally, we deeply believe that local television should remain the primary source of news for Canadians.

We thank the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage for its invitation to appear and its evident interest in the activities of our local stations, and we are ready to answer your questions.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much. You were right on time.

Ms. Smith and Ms. Hoar, you can present for your 10 minutes, and then we will go into the questions.

11:10 a.m.

Robyn Smith Editor-in-Chief, The Tyee

Good morning. Thanks for inviting us to speak today.

I'm here with Michelle Hoar, who helped found The Tyee and led its business operations for 13 years. She can help answer questions following my statement.

You are studying the state of Canada's media industry today, the impacts of new media, and what the future might be. I hope that telling you about my experience at The Tyee sheds some light on that.

I feel fortunate to work in journalism. I graduated from school in 2011, when legacy media outlets in this country were already reckoning with the impacts of the digital revolution. My peers were wary, but since many of our journalism heroes still worked at the big papers, we were hopeful a plan B would emerge.

But it just got worse. Advertising revenues kept dwindling, setting off waves of layoffs at the big chains. Traditional beats, the expertise at the heart of journalism, dried up as thinned newsrooms tried to keep up with the 24-hour digital news cycle with fewer people. Facebook and Google relentlessly decimated ad revenue as a support for news production. Corporate newsrooms responded by blurring the line between real reporting and advertorial.

Meanwhile, the CBC was cutting back drastically. We watched as the reporters we admired took early buyouts or fled the industry.

A few of my friends did find good jobs, but many gave up. They couldn't make a living from the scant available work, or they couldn't stomach industry trends towards chasing clicks or writing bland sponsored content to serve advertisers. Twenty years ago, I am told, a freelancer was paid three to five times more a word than today. What other industry's pay scale is going so dramatically in reverse?

I say this because I want to be clear that it isn't just critical public interest journalism that has been lost as our legacy media outlets have struggled. Canada is producing a lot of smart people who want to do this work, to throw all their brain power and passion into informing our vital democratic conversation, but there are fewer places for them to hone their craft and fewer mentors with the time to teach them.

The result is that we are failing to nurture the next generation of journalists, the kinds of reporters who help manifest real and necessary change in the world, and that is a huge loss.

I was lucky to land at The Tyee, which, over 13 years, has built a healthy regional and increasingly national following based on readers' appetite for what concentrated corporate media were missing, but despite pride in all we've done, we worry about our industry. We don't want public interest journalists, regardless of who their employer is, to be out of work.

No one in Canada has yet figured out a digital-only online business model that easily supports a large number of full-time, paid professional journalists. None of the local digital outlets have the size and scale that legacy media outlets once had. We worry that there's a dangerous chasm that's opened up as legacy media fails, and digital media isn't catching up fast enough to bridge the gap and cover what's lost.

I personally don't think that bailing out big media is the answer. I prefer a future where Canada's monolithic media companies are broken up and the news and information outlets are bought by smaller regional entities that care about their communities and have strong relationships with local institutions that support them.

Barring that, I do think there's a lot that a government with some imagination and appetite for change can do to revive our industry.

Imagine that in Canada there was a recognized, valued, and well-supported sector for digital media outlets like ours. Imagine a flourishing of Tyees, of all different stripes and missions, with different business models behind them, a mix of charity, for-profit, co-op, and hybrid structures. It starts with some investments and it needn't cost a lot. It doesn't even need to come directly from government, but government can help make it happen.

I recently asked our founding editor, David Beers, how much it cost to launch The Tyee in 2003. It was $190,000. At that time, there weren't many models like ours, so he and our founding investors thought like this: “All Canada needs is a template, and all we need is $190,000. If it bears fruit in the first year, we'll put in some more. If not, we'll pull out.” That's how The Tyee was off and running.

Today, $190,000 is less than one-fifth the cost of a tear-down house in my city of Vancouver. It's also, from what I've read, a little less than what it cost to move two of our Prime Minister's aides from Toronto to Ottawa.

That $190,000 helped get things going. It turned into repeated investments of similar amounts as The Tyee broke stories, drew an ever-larger audience, and obviously mattered. That $190,000 kick-started the development of several other pillars of earned revenue that now support our operations, including advertising, event sponsorships, income from our Tyee master classes, and, increasingly, voluntary support directly from our readers.

Patient investor commitments and diversified revenue streams are what has sustained The Tyee and built it into a respected, award-winning platform for public interest journalism. True, that $190,000 that launched The Tyee in 2003 may be a little more today. Let' s say it's $350,000. Supporting the launch of 20 Tyee-like outlets across Canada would cost $7 million. In my town, that's seven houses.

This is the vision I am holding out here today. Canada needs some combination of policy innovation and wilful prioritization to make the $190,000 that launched The Tyee gravitate, over and over again, towards independent journalism experiments across Canada.

We need incentives such as tax breaks, matching grants, and lifted philanthropic restrictions to encourage stakeholders in our communities to seed-fund independent media. We need infrastructure to help single independent media efforts like The Tyee more easily mesh into a network of other such experiments, perhaps a recognized sector of independent media sharing core costs, revenue streams, reporting projects, technological advances, and audiences.

There is a role for government in this, not in directly funding content. With respect, The Tyee would not seek such funding from the government because we are in the business of reporting on your activities. However, there is much to be done in building out the now proven but still needlessly starved potential of the independent media sector as a complement to corporate media and the CBC.

Let me quickly return to the mention I made of changing philanthropic laws. The Tyee has benefited over the years from contributions from forward-thinking philanthropic institutions through a relationship with our sister non-profit, the Tyee Solutions Society. That demonstrates that great things are possible, but we've also learned how federal policy makes the collaboration of philanthropies and public interest journalists needlessly difficult.

When the Tyee Solutions Society accesses philanthropic investment, we do solutions-oriented journalism. Solutions journalism uses investigative reporting techniques as its bedrock, but it is not about dinging politicians. It's focused on how to fix seemingly intractable problems. It's worked out well. We've so far done nearly one million dollars' worth of solutions journalism over the last seven years, on critical topics like food security, indigenous education, affordable housing, and Canada's energy future, and we've done it despite Canada's incredibly restrictive philanthropic rules. It's the kind of journalism my generation is interested in.

In sum, again, we're not asking you to fund our content. We're asking you to find ways to loosen up the money. We're asking you to consider a start-up fund for new media outlets like ours. We're asking you to help us attract more core investment funding and encourage a better investment climate for media in Canada overall, whether it's supporting community trusts or perhaps offering tax breaks. Finally, we're asking you to make it easier for philanthropies, individual and institutional, to support our solutions journalism.

I'm so glad there was a place like The Tyee when I started my career, and I'm asking you to wrap your heads around helping to create and support other homes for people like me. Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much.

Now we start the question and answer session. There's a seven-minute session in this round, and the seven minutes include both the question and answer.

We will begin with the Liberals and Monsieur Breton.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank all of the witnesses for their enlightening statements.

My first questions are for the representatives of Télé Inter-Rives ltée.

I cannot disagree with what you have said. Indeed, independent broadcasters play an essential role in the local market offer and the provision of local news.

In your statement you mentioned that on June 15 the CRTC created the new Independent Local News Fund. I have a few questions about that. In your case, what did that achieve? I know that you benefited from that fund.

11:20 a.m.

Director, CHAU-TV, Télé Inter-Rives Ltée

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC

Not yet?

11:20 a.m.

Director, CHAU-TV, Télé Inter-Rives Ltée

Pierre Harvey

No. This fund will come into effect on September 1, 2017.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC

So you do not yet have access to this fund, but you have seen its modalities. Do you have any details? It will contain $23 million. The purpose of this fund is to help local broadcasters. Are you satisfied with it?

11:20 a.m.

Director, CHAU-TV, Télé Inter-Rives Ltée

Pierre Harvey

In fact, overall, the independent news fund represents about $13 million. There will be about 20 independent broadcasters from all over Canada who will benefit from it as of September 1, 2017.

As we mentioned in our brief, we are satisfied with this measure from the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission. Firstly, this fund will maintain the level of local news produced by the different stations. Secondly, when the independent television stations go before the CRTC to have their licence renewed, the CRTC will examine whether the level of local news presented should be maintained or increased, according to the circumstances of each station.

It is important to compare this fund with other funds in the past. In the past, there was a small fund for independent stations to offset the non-distribution of their signals by satellites. It was called the Small Market Local Programming Fund, the SMLPF. The CRTC eliminated that small fund in order to create the new one. So, there were already some funds available from that fund and we benefited from it over the past years. In addition, from 2009 to 2012, we received support from the LPIF, the Local Program Improvement Fund.

According to the estimates we did over the past few weeks, these two funds were larger that what we are going to receive through the new fund created by the CRTC. This means that the new fund for local news will help to maintain the local production levels we had, but it will not help us to produce other local programs that are very much appreciated by our audiences.

We at Télé Inter-Rives have often been cited as an example by the CRTC for having used the funds given to us over the past years to produce new local programming. You will understand that we are a bit disappointed by this new fund.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC

I have another question.

Of course, you are affiliated with TVA.

11:25 a.m.

Director, CHAU-TV, Télé Inter-Rives Ltée

Pierre Harvey

Also with V and Radio-Canada.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC

You have faced a lot of financial challenges over the past years, and there are still many to come. Tell us about the importance of your affiliation to these network broadcasters.

11:25 a.m.

Director, CHAU-TV, Télé Inter-Rives Ltée

Pierre Harvey

In fact, 95% of our programs come from those large networks, either TVA, Radio-Canada or V. Of course, if we only produced local news, we would only be on the air 25 hours a week and our station would likely be forgotten among all of the visual choices presented in each of the regions. So, in order to have good ratings, to have a big audience, it is important to be affiliated with networks, as are local conventional television stations everywhere in Canada.

We have a very good business relationship with the two private networks, V and TVA. However, we have had a little more trouble over the past few months with Radio-Canada. We have in fact just renewed our affiliation contract, which covers the next five years as of September 1. I must tell you that Radio-Canada has cut, almost entirely, our selective network and national advertising revenues for the duration of the contract. This represents a considerable loss. To give you an idea, the new funds we will receive from the CRTC to help produce local news at CKRT will offset the losses caused by this decision on the part of Radio-Canada. It was really with great reluctance that we accepted this new affiliation contract. We had no choice and were obliged to accept the new contract.

11:25 a.m.

Vice-Chair, Information, Télé Inter-Rives Ltée, CIMT-TV / CKRT-TV, Télé Inter-Rives Ltée

Cindy Simard

Under the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Act, networks can no longer disaffiliate stations. We are asking that the CRTC be given greater power, because it has no role or decision-making power over commercial agreements between the stations and the networks. The CRTC does not get involved in these commercial agreements.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC

I don't think I have time for another question, Madam Chair.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

No, you have five seconds.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC

It would be interesting to go back to the trouble you have had with Radio-Canada. I hope to have the opportunity of exploring that with you.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

Mr. Waugh, for the Conservatives, you have seven minutes.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

I see four local stations, a family outfit. Family-owned TV stations are dying in this country. That $3.5 million every year that you spend on the four TV stations isn't a lot of money. Tell me what you spend it on.

You said that you did 25 hours a week. Is that for all four? Would that be 100 hours on all four of your stations or is it 25 hours per station for local news? Maybe you can qualify what you do. Is it an hour-long cast? Do you have a documentary? How do your four stations operate on local programming? Qualify the local programming on your four stations.

11:25 a.m.

Director, CHAU-TV, Télé Inter-Rives Ltée

Pierre Harvey

In our brief, we mention that we produce and broadcast close to 25 hours of local programming per week. Ninety per cent of that programming is made up of news. For instance, our two stations that are affiliated to the TVA network produce a noon hour news bulletin, which is broadcast from 12:10 p.m. to 12:30 p.m., and an evening news bulletin, broadcast between 6:10 p.m. and 6:30 p.m.

All through the day, we broadcast news headlines as events unfold, so as to offer various local news bulletins to our viewing audience. At CIMT-TV, this represents approximately seven and a half hours of local news programming per week; at CHAU-TV, approximately six hours a week; at CKRT-TV, about four hours a week; and at CFTF-TV, about five and a half hours a week.

In order to renew our broadcasting licence, the CRTC asked us to commit to 11 hours and 50 minutes of local programming. Currently, we provide almost more than twice that.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Mr. Nadeau, you're a news director. Journalism, in my estimation, has come way down in this country. First of all, we have way too many journalism schools in this country for the market they are serving.

French-wise, how are you doing in a small station in dealing with young journalism students right out of school coming into your station? Talk about that aspect of it.

11:30 a.m.

Jean-Philippe Nadeau Director, Information, CIMT-TV / CKRT-TV Rivière-du-Loup, Télé Inter-Rives Ltée

Our Rivière-du-Loup stations, CIMT and CKRT, cover a very large territory. We broadcast in Rivière-du-Loup, Charlevoix, and New Brunswick. We have teams on the ground just about everywhere. We hire young reporters. We are a regional training school, since several reporters who are now here in Ottawa worked in Rivière-du-Loup, as well as others elsewhere in the country. We have always hired passionate people.

In fact, the people who live in the regions need just as much quality information, produced with the necessary journalistic rigour. Since we are affiliated with networks like TVA and Radio-Canada, the journalistic standards are the same, whether we serve a small market or a large one. It is no different in the case of Rivière-du-Loup. The difference is that we cover large territories, sometimes with small news teams.

Over the past few years, we have continued to hire staff, despite a difficult economic context for the media. We have always been concerned with maintaining the quality of information, because people need to be informed, locally and regionally. In fact, local information is the basis of democracy. People want to know what is happening in their municipality, their school board, their hospitals. The decisions made impact them on a daily basis.

In the absence of local media such as our own, people would listen to national news. The locus of interest would thus be much further away. This is how we in the regions manage to reach people. In fact, they let us know daily. When we meet people on the ground, they thank us for talking to them about their area, because they want to know what is going on close to them. That is why it is important to provide greater assistance to regional stations like ours, so that we can maintain that information quality.

There have been a lot of technological changes these past years, and we have had to invest in high definition. Our station was one of the first ones in Quebec, after Montreal, to make that change. May I repeat that the people in the regions want to have a product that is of equal quality, as regards both the image and the information. There was also the whole digital change, with the advent of the Internet. People want to be informed quickly, and we have to maintain not only our local programming but also our websites, with the same number of journalists. We constantly add information to our sites, 24 hours a day. This means that we do more, but we do not have any more staff than before.