Evidence of meeting #27 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was newspapers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Honderich  Chair, Torstar Corporation
Martin Cauchon  Executive Chairman, Groupe Capitales Médias, La Coalition pour la pérennité de la presse d’information au Québec
Brian Myles  Editor, Director, Le Devoir, La Coalition pour la pérennité de la presse d’information au Québec
Pierre-Paul Noreau  President, Publisher, Le Droit, La Coalition pour la pérennité de la presse d’information au Québec
James Baxter  Founding Editor, iPolitics Inc

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Larry Maguire

Good morning, everyone.

It's my pleasure to be here as the vice-chair of the committee. Ms. Fry is unavailable, so I will be chairing the meeting this morning. I welcome everyone.

The first item of business is the notice of motion.

Mr. Waugh.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's my pleasure to be here this morning. The motion is:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Committee immediately undertake a study into the government's rejection of an expert-panel's decision to locate the future Ottawa Hospital Civic Campus on federal land across the street from the existing Hospital; and that the Committee call the Ministers of Environment, Heritage, and Agriculture and Dr. Mark Kristmanson, CEO of the National Capital Commission (NCC), to discuss the matter.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Larry Maguire

Mr. Poilievre.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

I'd like to be added to the speakers list on the motion.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Larry Maguire

Mr. Poilievre, are you speaking to the motion?

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

Mr. Chair, I'll open by saying that I understand that a matter related to an individual hospital would not normally be the subject of study by any federal parliamentary committee, much less a committee on heritage, but this is not a normal circumstance. The issue arises from the fact that the federal government had previously approved the disposal of about 60 acres of land on Carling Avenue in central Ottawa for the construction of a hospital to replace the existing Ottawa Civic campus, which is now 92 years old.

The current Minister of Environment put a stop to the process after it had already begun and has, thus far, delayed the construction of the hospital for a year. After some period of quiet and confusion, she decided to give the issue over to the Minister of Canadian Heritage, who then delegated it to the NCC, the National Capital Commission, for which this committee does have jurisdiction. That is how we have ended up here today.

The Ottawa Hospital Civic campus serves not only our capital but also western Quebec, Gatineau, and eastern Ontario. I understand there are even some patients who use it for specialized services and come from as far away as Nunavut. The campus also serves as a trauma centre for eastern Ontario, and the regional centre for cardiac and stroke. The federal government, by blocking the construction of the hospital on available land across the street, which was selected by an expert panel, is imperilling all of that.

The existing campus is in very rough shape. It's 92 years old and in desperate need of replacement and repair. That's why we're here today, to ask the Minister of Environment to come before the heritage committee, as she has delegated the matter to the heritage minister and the NCC, and explain her decision to delay the construction of this hospital.

That is the introductory comment I'd make on the matter. I welcome members to support the motion so that we can have a study at a time appropriate for the committee.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Larry Maguire

Thank you, Mr. Poilievre.

Mr. Vandal.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB

We have some invited guests to talk about the subject matter at hand. I understand this is an issue that's been raised in the House of Commons. I'm a little surprised that it's being raised here by no less than an honourable member who has never been to this committee.

My understanding is that the location of a hospital is something that's not in our purview. It's the responsibility of the provincial government. I find it unique, bordering on bizarre, that we have a new member, a member who has never been to the heritage committee, now championing a debate on a motion on where a hospital is going to be located, which is the responsibility of the Province of Manitoba at a time when we have invited members to speak to a very important study we are doing on media in Canada.

I would hope that the honourable member would withdraw his motion so we can go through the regular channels and can continue with the study that's so incredibly important to the work we're doing.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Larry Maguire

Mr. Poilievre, do you have a thought?

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

It's not my intention to distract any further from the testimony before us, but the motion was given notice. I am here today because I originally raised the matter at the health committee, which has said that committee is not responsible for this federal intervention in the hospital location. I'm here today because the health committee would not hear the discussion.

The reality is, this is now a matter under the control of the National Capital Commission, for which this committee is responsible. The member is quite right that normally no federal government would be involved in the location of a hospital, but your government has decided to involve itself, and there's now a federal process under way, under the direction of the heritage minister, studying 12 different locations in the national capital region.

Again, I wish I weren't here, and I wish we didn't have to have this conversation. I don't believe that the NCC, the heritage minister, or frankly the environment minister, should be involved in this matter, but they are. They have involved themselves. As a member of Parliament who represents 100,000 people who will be affected by this decision, and given that the federal government has appropriated the decision to itself, I have an obligation to get the facts, and that's why I've come before this committee.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Larry Maguire

Thank you, Mr. Poilievre. That was my understanding of why it was brought up in your opening remarks.

It may be a clerical issue here, Mr. Vandal. Mr. Vandal, you mentioned in your remarks that it was the Province of Manitoba's responsibility. I think it's the Province of Ontario you meant.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB

Yes. I meant the province. I wasn't aware I said the Province of Manitoba.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Larry Maguire

I only picked that up because we're in the same province.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB

Yes, it's the province's responsibility. I'm sorry.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Larry Maguire

Mr. Samson.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Mr. Chair, I have to agree with my colleague Mr. Vandal. We're not the saviour of all saviours here. We have a very strict agenda. We have very important guests who are here today to speak on the theme that is so important to us.

Since I've been elected to the House of Commons, I've been focused on this work. We're trying to bring closure to this work by the end of this calendar year, keeping in mind that the National Capital Commission has a job to do. It's in the process. Let it do its job, and when the time is appropriate and the environment is appropriate, then it will be brought to the appropriate people to answer, but this is not the forum for that today.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Larry Maguire

Thank you, Mr. Samson.

I guess it's only here because of the National Capital Commission falling under the Minister of the Environment. That was the comment that was made earlier.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON

That's right.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

This is not the environment.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Larry Maguire

Is there any other discussion on this motion, then?

(Motion negatived)

Thank you for your indulgence.

I just wanted to point out, too, that we have time today and we'll certainly make sure that we get two rounds of questions in here for our witnesses who have great detail to provide us today as well. I'm really pleased they're here. I want to welcome our witnesses, and we'll move right into it.

I will just explain, as my colleague Ms. Fry does when she is chairing, that we open up with 10 minutes for each of the groups of witnesses to present their statements, followed by rounds of questions. I believe we'll have seven-minute rounds, and we'll try to make sure we get two of those in today as well, even if we have to go a bit past 11 o'clock. We'll have time in the second group to do the same.

With that, I'd like to welcome all of you here.

I invite Mr. Honderich to make a presentation on behalf of Torstar Corporation.

11:10 a.m.

John Honderich Chair, Torstar Corporation

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

My name is John Honderich, I am chair of the board of Torstar Corporation, and I'm delighted to accept your invitation to speak today.

My message to you is a simple one. There is a crisis of declining good journalism across Canada. At this point, we only see the situation getting worse. What we see is far fewer municipal councils being covered. At Canada's second largest government at Queen's Park, there is now just one multi-reporter news bureau. Here in Ottawa, the parliamentary press gallery has shrunk, as Canada's large metropolitan newspapers, and that includes our own, have significantly cut back reporters. Across the land, I can say there is much less quality investigative reporting.

The implications of this trend for an informed citizenry and for local communities gaining access to the information they need are profound. If you believe, as we do, that the quality of a democracy is a direct function of the quality of information citizens have to make informed decisions, then this trend is indeed worrisome. I think it's something that should concern us all.

It is very important right at the outset for this committee to understand that newspapers are far from dead. From a readership point of view, we are still alive and kicking. Fifty per cent of Canadians still read a print newspaper. Close to 90%, in fact it was 88% last year, of Canadians read newspaper content on one of four digital platforms every week. In our bailiwick, the latest Vividata survey shows that the Toronto Star print newspaper, still the largest in the country, is read daily by more than one million people. This is twice the readership, I might add, of our nearest competitor. The latest figures show digital readership of the Toronto Star on one of the platforms is up 67%. Page views are up 39%. Unique visitors are up 30%. That, by the way, translates into 26 million visits a month.

Readership is not the issue. It is the business model. I would like to illustrate this paradigm shift through our own experience at Torstar.

We pride ourselves as a progressive media company, committed to quality journalism that publishes more than 110 newspapers and owns dozens of digital businesses. The company was founded on our flagship newspaper, the Toronto Star. The Star Media Group also operates thestar.com, which is one of the most visited websites in Canada; Star Touch, our daily tablet offering; the Metro chain of newspapers, with operations in Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto, and Halifax; and Sing Tao, the Chinese language newspaper group, with papers in Toronto, Vancouver, and Calgary.

On the community side of our corporation, Metroland publishes more than 100 community newspapers spread across all of southern Ontario, plus the Hamilton Spectator and the Waterloo Region Record. Metroland is one of Canada's leading media companies, which, in addition to its newspapers, owns many digital properties, a vast flyer distribution network, printing facilities, shows, magazines, and directories. Finally, we are a one-third owner of Canada's national news service, the Canadian Press.

I think it's fair to say we know a little bit about newspapers. We have prided ourselves on the quality of our journalism across the entire group, and our connections to the communities we serve are profound. We have the awards to prove it. If you want to know what's happening in Toronto, you go to the Star. In Hamilton, it's the Spec. In New Hamburg, it's the Independent. In Parry Sound, it's the North Star, etc. I could do that for 110, and all of these are Torstar properties.

However, for the last decade, we have been buffeted by fundamental change in the newspaper industry. The digital revolution, plus the advent of the Internet, have fundamentally changed the business model under which we operate. The phenomenon is worldwide and has been well-documented.

But let me tell you the story from my perspective when I was publisher of the Star. I can remember that with our readership numbers I could boast, and I certainly did, that you had to advertise in the Star. Today there is an infinite number of digital places where advertisers can and do place their ads.

I can remember as business editor when we brought in $75 million in career advertising. It's completely gone. I can remember when our classified section ran up to 45 pages. Today's it's Kijiji and Craigslist. We now run two classified pages every day, and our largest category is births and deaths. I can remember when our travel section was huge. It no longer is. All those revenues paid for a lot of reporters.

Without that revenue, we simply cannot afford as many journalists. Indeed, the very business model is at risk. I don't want this committee, though, to think that we've sat idly by and not tried to do anything about it. Torstar, in my view, has been one of the most innovative in trying new digital ventures, everything from Workopolis to WagJag, to Toronto.com, to Star Touch, to Blue Ant Media, to Gottarent.com, to Goldbrook.ca.

There have been some successes, but the structural pressures have been relentless. Advertising revenues continue to decline and as a publicly traded company, it's there for all to see. What does this mean for our ability to report the news in all our communities? Again, let the figures tell the story.

Over the past decade the number of journalists at the Toronto Star has decreased from a high point when I was publisher of 475. When we're finished our latest buy-outs it will be 170. At the Spec and the Record, the number of journalists has been cut in half. In our community papers the number of reporters has been cut by one-third. You may well have read that earlier this year we were forced to shut down the Guelph Mercury, one of Canada's oldest newspapers, because it was no longer sustainable. You can imagine that was a very tough decision.

Put all these numbers together and it spells out an alarming tale. Why? Believe it or not, newspapers are still the only media institutions, with a few exceptions, with large newsrooms. You don't find any reporters at radio stations or in digital operations. Some argue that the democratization of the web that allows constant bloggers and citizens to write is the answer. I don't agree. They have neither the resources, the expertise, nor the time to get to the bottom of the story or to really get onto serious investigative journalism, which to me was key.

Sadly, we see no remedies on the horizon, which is why we feel it is essential—and this is why I'm here—that there be a national debate and which is why we appreciate that this committee is asking the necessary and appropriate questions. As members of Newspapers Canada we report the recommendations that were filed with this committee and we feel strongly that without some action, quality journalism and connection to our communities will get even worse. The stakes are that high.

Thank you very much.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Larry Maguire

Thank you very much, Mr. Honderich.

If I could make a comment, I'm still very glad to see that you have those two particular pages of classifieds going.

11:20 a.m.

Chair, Torstar Corporation

John Honderich

They're still very well read.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Larry Maguire

I'm sure.

11:20 a.m.

Chair, Torstar Corporation

John Honderich

People seem to want to see a death notice in print—