Evidence of meeting #29 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was media.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Geist  Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law, Professor of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
April Lindgren  Principal Investigator, Professor, Local News Research Project, Ryerson University School of Journalism, As an Individual
Jean-François Bernier  Director General, Cultural Industries, Department of Canadian Heritage
Helen Kennedy  Director General, Broadcasting and Digital Communications, Department of Canadian Heritage
Luc Marchand  Director, Periodical Publishing Policy and Programs, Department of Canadian Heritage

October 6th, 2016 / 11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. We welcome the witnesses.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), this committee is doing a study of the media and of local community access to news on all platforms, including digital, as well as access to Canadian content, what the impact is of consolidation of the media, and what future we can look forward to and bring recommendations on.

I want to thank our witnesses for coming today. We have with us Dr. Michael Geist, Canada research chair in Internet and e-commerce law and professor in the faculty of law at the University of Ottawa, and April Lindgren, principal investigator in the local news research project and professor at Ryerson University's School of Journalism.

How we begin, witnesses, is that each of you has 10 minutes to make your points. Then we go to questions and answers, where there is some interaction.

Shall we begin?

Go ahead, Dr. Geist, please, for 10 minutes.

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Dr. Michael Geist Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law, Professor of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Chair.

Good morning.

As you heard, my name is Michael Geist. I'm a law professor at the University of Ottawa, where I hold the Canada research chair in Internet and e-commerce law. My areas of specialty are in digital policy, including e-commerce, privacy, and intellectual property.

I appear today in a personal capacity representing only my own views. I'm particularly pleased to have the opportunity to speak before this committee on this study. My interest in the issue extends beyond my academic research into new business models and the laws and policies that often follow.

For more than 15 years I've written regularly for a wide range of Canadian media. This includes large media organizations like the Toronto Star and The Globe and Mail, specialty and local publications such as The Hill Times and Vue Weekly, and newer online publications such as The Tyee, The Huffington Post, and iPolitics. In that capacity, I've witnessed first-hand the different readers, the different business models, and the different approaches to content. I've also been on the receiving end of cuts due to shrinking budgets as well as the conflicts that sometimes arise between editorial and business departments.

My comments today are divided into two sections. The first section is my take on the current landscape and the second is a discussion of potential policy reforms.

With respect to the current landscape, I've been following this study and the committee hearings closely. I note that you've heard from a wide range of witnesses who have offered up a dizzying array of suggestions and recommendations for reforms. Much of the commentary emphasizes the critical link between strong independent media on the one hand and citizen participation and holding governments at all levels to account for their actions on the other.

While there is little debate over the essential role of journalism, the tougher questions are whether policies are needed to save or assist existing news organizations and whether emerging digital alternatives can provide an effective substitute. I'm reminded that people like Clay Shirky, a well-known media professor in the United States, predicted the current struggles many years ago.

Indeed, in a widely read piece in 2009, Shirky wrote about the media concern with the digital world. He said:

Round and round this goes, with the people committed to saving newspapers demanding to know “If the old model is broken, what will work in its place?” To which the answer is: Nothing. Nothing will work. There is no general model for newspapers to replace the one the internet just broke.

While there are policies that merit consideration, Shirky's point is that the general public newspaper, as we have known it, can't compete with the Internet. It's not solely a function of lost revenue, such as classifieds, or declining readership; rather, the newspaper's role in aggregating diverse content is less relevant today, and that package has far less value than it once did, given that there are now other alternatives.

Moreover, newspapers face far more competition than ever before. In my view, some newspapers are disappearing not because of too few voices but because, at least under their economic model, there are too many. With few exceptions, the content they produce has substitutes from cheaper online organizations, NGOs, bloggers, and a myriad of other sources. We can debate the quality and editorial product, but there are alternatives for virtually all forms of information traditionally published, sometimes almost on an exclusive basis, by newspapers in the past.

When there is no substitute or premium placed on the content, experience shows the market will pay. Hence the success of financial and some sports information, as well as some specialty paywalled publications. For general interest publications, though, I think the question is whether digital news organizations, which enjoy low entry barriers, a reach into new audiences, and innovative business models, can in some instances replace some of those traditional organizations. I believe that there is some evidence to suggest that it can, at least in some areas.

For example, political news coverage is often viewed as most critical in holding governments to account. Some have pointed to the regional decline of membership in the Parliamentary press gallery as evidence of the crisis. I think it's more instructive to see how many new digital-only organizations are investing in original political reportage.

The current gallery membership includes newcomers such as The Huffington Post, Tyee—who I know you heard from—rabble.ca, National Observer, and VICE News. Moreover, there are a host of experienced freelance journalists whose work appears in many venues alongside specialty digital publications such as iPolitics, Blacklock's Reporter, and The Wire Report.

The work of journalists at these publications, along with the niche print sources and experts who blog or write independently, offers us the chance to reach different audiences and to cover specialized issues in greater depth than is often found in larger newspapers, which frequently emphasize big-picture concerns.

That's my take on the landscape. With that, I'd like to turn a little bit to some of the policy issues.

In the face of the obvious decline of some well-known news organizations, the temptation to do something is unsurprising, and there are, I believe, steps that can be taken to assist in the digital transition. However, we should be very wary of reforms that simply prolong the life of some unsuccessful entrenched entities or that have serious unintended consequences. Some of those—the ones that I'm concerned about—include proposals for taxes on Internet providers as a source of new revenue. This would be the equivalent of a digital tax on everything, making it costlier for Canadians to access the Internet and exacerbating the digital divide.

Another source of concern, I think, are the proposals we've seen at times for what might be seen as link taxes on digital aggregators, who drive traffic to original sites and only aggregate content that is made available by the originating source. These proposals have serious free speech concerns and run the risk of reducing the diversity of voices.

Third, we've heard of some proposals to reform copyright fair dealing by dispensing with the long-standing rule that copyright protects expression, not ideas. This runs the danger of protecting facts, excluding others from reporting, which I think would undermine reporting and add costs to other groups. Indeed, I think suggestions that somehow fair dealing and the expansion to include education have any implications for this are simply wrong. I believe these changes could have serious detrimental effects on the Canadian digital landscape and ultimately harm new entrants that offer hope for more media choice.

What can be done? I think the policy goals should be premised on levelling the playing field, with the priority being good journalism regardless of the source.

I'd like to identify five possible steps.

First, the foundation for a robust digital media world is access for all, as both participants and readers. This means addressing the digital divide with world-class broadband that is accessible and affordable to all Canadians. We still aren't there in Canada, and experience suggests that the market alone will not solve the issue. Our emphasis should be on affordable equipment and affordable Internet access, along with digital skills development.

Second, with respect to Canada's public broadcaster, I know that the CBC's emphasis on digital delivery of news content has created frustration with many established news organizations. Reconciling the need for the CBC to remain relevant by embracing digital delivery with the financial impact on private sector news services could be addressed by requiring the public broadcaster to adopt an ad-free approach to its online news presence. That would ensure that it reaches its digital audience but does not compete directly with the private sector for advertising dollars.

Third, there have been, as I pointed out earlier, what I believe are harmful tax policy suggestions, but I think there are some useful possibilities as well. Private news services could benefit from a change to allow tax deductions for advertising on Canadian websites. Online services, I believe, should remain unregulated and free from mandatory contributions, but should be subject to general sales taxes. Levying GST or HST on Canadian services such as CraveTV while leaving foreign services in the media space like Netflix tax free would create a tax revenue shortfall and place domestic services at a disadvantage compared to their foreign counterparts.

Fourth, remove access barriers for journalism. This includes access to information rules at all levels of government and better recognition of journalists from all organizations in press conferences and availability.

Finally, focus on journalism, not organizations. For example, I believe the recommendations that you heard from the Canadian Association of Journalists on the value of embracing non-profit journalism, which has worked elsewhere, are excellent. While state subsidies for newspapers should be rejected, funding models for journalism projects as a media equivalent of the Court Challenges program, for example, might be helpful.

In conclusion, the uncertainty associated with digital models, the loss of jobs, and the future of some of Canada's best-known media organizations unsurprisingly elicit sadness, apprehension, and concern. However, emergence of new voices and innovative approaches of older ones point to the likelihood that journalism is neither dead nor dying. The trick is to avoid policy reforms that may do more harm than good and to trust in a transformation that has more access and more voices as its foundation.

I look forward to your questions.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Ms. Lindgren, for 10 minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Professor April Lindgren Principal Investigator, Professor, Local News Research Project, Ryerson University School of Journalism, As an Individual

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here today to talk about my research.

I launched The Local News Research Project after I left daily news reporting and became a member of Ryerson's faculty back in 2007.

I should preface my remarks by saying that I'm going to talk specifically about local news, which is news produced by a local news organization that focuses on producing news about people, places, and events in a particular community. I'm not talking about national news or international news.

My interest in what I call local news poverty grew out of my observations about how some communities have a rich range of local news media to choose from and others do not. Toronto, for instance, has four dailies and many online television and broadcast outlets. By comparison, a nearby city like Brampton, which is Canada's ninth-largest city and has more than 500,000 people, relies pretty much exclusively on the Brampton Guardian, a community newspaper owned by Metroland Media. There's no local radio, no local television, and no local daily newspaper that focuses exclusively on news from that community.

The reality, as you well know, is that there has been a major disruption in the news industry. People who live in smaller cities, towns, suburban communities, and rural areas have fewer options to begin with, and in recent years their choice has become even more limited. The question then, of course, is whether this matters. The research suggests that the answer is yes.

In the United States, the Knight Commission on the Information Needs of Communities in a Democracy concluded, as it put it, that “Information is as vital to the healthy functioning of communities as clean air, safe streets, good schools, and public health.” It went on to explain that news and information help communities develop a sense of connectedness, provide access to information for holding public officials accountable, and give people the information they need to work collectively to solve problems.

While local journalism is the subject of increasingly intensive scrutiny in the United States, there's much we don't know about what's going on in Canada. I think the committee has heard from some witnesses who have pointed this out, including Carleton University professor Dwayne Winseck, who earlier this year said there are “a lot of opinions and little data to act upon” in terms of what's happening with local news.

I and colleagues Jon Corbett at the University of British Columbia and Jaigris Hodson at Royal Roads are trying to fill in some of these gaps. We launched our investigation into local news poverty last summer, and we've just now started to have our data ready for discussion with you.

The project's goals are to develop a tool that can allow us to track changes in local news sources, to measure the extent to which some communities are better served than others, to determine whether social media and digital-only news sites are filling the gap created by the loss of more traditional media, and to investigate why some communities are better served than others. We are also, in the longer term, interested in looking at the impact of the loss of these news organizations on civic and political engagement and in exploring the possible solutions.

Our project is basically divided into two main parts at this point. The first is the local news map. It's a crowdsource map that allows users to add information about changes to local news organizations: the launch of a new one, the closure of another news organization, services increases and service decreases. This is for local broadcast, online, and print media.

We launched the map in June. We wanted to do this to spark debate about what's happening to local journalism and to generate some data to inform that debate, as well as to help us identify trends and patterns if any emerge. The map, in general, can paint a big picture idea of what's happening to local journalism, but you can also zoom in on local communities and see what's changed at the local level. You can see what's happening to a specific type of news organization, such as what's been happening on the community newspaper scene or what's been happening in television or to local radio.

You can also monitor changes by media ownership. The map, of course, is a crowdsource map, so it's only as good as the information that people add to it, but we moderate the map and we think that the information is reliable and that the trends we're seeing reflect reality.

What are we seeing? Three months after its launch, the map tells a pretty powerful—and disturbing, I think, for many people—visual story of newsroom closures that far exceed the number of new ventures being launched.

When we examined the data at the end of September, there were 307 markers on the map highlighting changes going back to 2008, because we wanted to provide a historical perspective. Of those 307 markers, 164 documented the closure of a local news outlet in 132 different communities across the country. By comparison, there were only 63 markers highlighting the launch of a new local news source.

The second part of our project examines how local news outlets covered the contest for members of Parliament during the 2015 federal election. We were interested in election coverage because the race to represent a community in the House of Commons is a major news event that would warrant news media attention. As such, we think that in some ways it can be thought of as a proxy for the overall performance of local news media in general.

We looked at local news media and their coverage of the race for MPs in eight communities: Peterborough, the City of Kawartha Lakes, Oakville, Brampton, and Thunder Bay in Ontario; Brandon, Manitoba; and Nanaimo and Kamloops in British Columbia. We identified the local news outlets in those communities, and then we collected all of the stories that they did about the election race for their member of Parliament in the month prior to the vote.

I have some figures in the brief that I submitted, and they show significant differences in the number of local news sources in different communities. For instance, in Brampton there are three news outlets, which is 0.14 news outlets per 10,000 registered voters. At the other end of the spectrum, you have Kamloops, where there are 1.25 news outlets per 10,000 registered voters. There are nine altogether there.

This measure suggests that big suburban cities are relatively underserved in terms of the number of news outlets in them. Likewise, the data shows rural communities, such as the City of Kawartha Lakes, are also relatively underserved. At the same time, intriguingly, in medium-sized communities such as Nanaimo, Thunder Bay, Peterborough, and Kamloops, there's quite a variation. The question is, why? Why are some of them better served than others?

There is a second major observation that we can make at this stage, and I would emphasize that our data here is really preliminary and that we just got it in the last two weeks. The second observation is that there are significant differences in the number of stories about the local races to be an MP. Again, Brampton was relatively underserved with 43 stories in total, but more to the point, there were only about two stories for every 10,000 registered voters. If you lived in Thunder Bay or Kamloops, you were looking at 20 to 25 stories per 10,000 registered voters. Again, there is quite a disparity in the available stories.

I just wanted to draw your attention to Nanaimo, where there are about 15 stories for 10,000 voters. There were 103 stories that we found, but 57 of those stories were produced by the Nanaimo Daily News, which closed earlier this year, so those are 57 stories that a local news outlet is no longer producing.

Similarly, an online news site—quite a vibrant news site—in Kamloops called NewsKamloops, which was started after the closure of the daily newspaper in that community, also closed earlier this week. It produced, I believe, about 35 or 40 stories out of those 105 stories available to voters there.

We're seeing a significant lack of diversity, in some communities more than others. We did one more measure, which was to look at the variety of voices. Again, what we found was that in Brampton just one local news producer dominated the production of news, whereas in places like Thunder Bay and Kamloops the news coverage was spread more evenly among the different news organizations there, so people were able to hear from a greater variety of news organizations.

Our data so far indicates that news coverage of local contests for MPs varied significantly according to where you lived. By all three measures, people who lived in a place like Kamloops enjoyed relative local news affluence compared with people who lived in a city like Brampton or a rural area like the City of Kawartha Lakes.

The next step in our research is to take all these measures and reduce them to a single number in an index that we can use to create a ranking of communities in terms of the existence of local news poverty. In other words, the single number will reflect relative levels of news poverty, and then we can look at the characteristics of poorly served communities and try to figure out why they are more poorly served than others. There are some possibilities of lines of inquiry I can talk about, if you like.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much. I'm sorry, but we've reached the 10-minute mark. You can elaborate as the question-and-answer period moves on.

Now we're going to go to the questions. It is a seven-minute question-and-answer segment, and the seven minutes include both the questions and the answers, just so you know.

We will begin with Ms. Dabrusin from the Liberals.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I'd like to thank both of the witnesses for appearing today. It was very helpful to hear all of that information and the points of view.

Dr. Geist, my first question is specifically for you, because you touched on copyright review, and there will be a copyright review in 2017. Having looked into that and the issues that have come up here, I was happy that you focused a bit of your comments on the affordability of broadband access. That's one part of the equation. When we've looked at the copyright issue, we've heard from some journalists and papers appearing before us that the other side of the issue is how we maintain viable journalism and the viability of journalism as a career.

Thinking about the upcoming copyright review, what are your comments about what we should be looking at when we're balancing all of those issues?

11:25 a.m.

Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law, Professor of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Michael Geist

Thanks for the question.

I'd start by noting that I don't think copyright really has anything to do with the viability of journalism. Indeed, one of the most essential exceptions within the Copyright Act is the one for news reporting. Frankly, if we don't have a robust fair dealing provision, one that incorporates a liberal approach with respect both to fair dealing and particularly to news reporting, the ability for reporters to use materials and reuse materials as part of their reportage could be severely compromised indeed.

I can think about the number of times when I was doing pieces within the mainstream media and found them “lawyered” because of different kinds of concerns that arose. If we were add the prospect of a fair dealing analysis because you were using other materials as part of your reportage and you feared potential lawsuits, I think that would severely compromise the kind of original journalism that's absolutely essential.

With respect to how fair dealing has been interpreted, including education and this notion that there are news sites out there that can fully copy my work and make it available without any sort of compensation, that simply isn't an accurate reflection of what fair dealing permits. It certainly permits uses and sometimes full articles for, let's say, non-commercial purposes in an education environment, but when we're talking about a commercial use—let's say by a competitor organization—the notion that somehow fair dealing would permit the copying of those materials and the reposting of those materials isn't an accurate reflection of the law.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I ask because it seems that several witnesses who have come before us have raised the copyright laws and have talked about concerns regarding aggregators simply collecting their materials and putting them out there, and their not being able to collect any types of royalties or payment once their materials are used by these aggregators. That's what I'm trying to get to.

11:25 a.m.

Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law, Professor of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Michael Geist

Sure, and I've seen some of those comments. I think we ought to distinguish between aggregators that take in that content for indexing purposes and then make snippets available and aggregators who take content and then simply repost, unchanged by and large, that same content.

I don't think those who take those works for indexing purposes, for search purposes, but don't make available the full text and send the person who's searching for this material back to the originating source are violating copyright. Indeed, I think it's a good thing because it increases the exposure of the original reportage.

If someone aggregates content and then simply takes that same content and reposts it unchanged, that will unquestionably raise issues. I know that there's a fine line with some sources when the perception is that they take that content, rewrite it a bit, and then make it available.

I'd come back again to the distinction between the protection of ideas and expression. I don't think we would want to see an environment or a law that protected both expression and ideas and said that the copyright protection covers your ideas as well, so that if one news organization published an exclusive, all others would be prohibited from covering that same story because somehow they had that broad-based protection.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Continuing on our discussion about fair dealing, then, would you make any suggestions for changes to that part of the copyright legislation when we're reviewing it in 2017, or would you just keep it exactly the way it is?

11:30 a.m.

Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law, Professor of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Michael Geist

No, as part of the 2012 reforms, I argued and I would continue to argue that, if anything, we need to move towards more of a fair-use model—the U.S. model—by removing the limitations. We have a series of purposes within the act—limited currently to eight—such as news reporting, research, and review, and we should use those to say “purposes such as” so that we would potentially open the door to other uses.

The idea that we would legislatively try to roll back what the Supreme Court of Canada has said with regard to that balance strikes me as the wrong way to go. I think that would disadvantage not just education and the Canadian public but, quite frankly, some of the very same organizations that we're talking about here today. Their counterparts in places like the United States enjoy the flexibility of fair use. The idea that we would restrict some of those kinds of operational abilities, I think, would be very harmful.

11:30 a.m.

Prof. April Lindgren

I was going to make the point that Dr. Geist did, which is that news organizations actually want aggregators that drive traffic to their sites. That's part of the way they build readership. It's considered a very powerful tool. They want aggregators that do the snippet approach, so that you read the first three sentences, then you click, and then it takes you right to the site.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Do I still have time?

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Yes, go ahead. You have about one minute.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Okay.

Another thing has come up along the same line, which is that some of the witnesses have talked about how money going to non-Canadian social media is depriving our Canadian media of revenues. I can put that to both of you. It's been an ongoing concern posed by, for example, Facebook and Google. What is your response to that concern, and what would be your solution?

11:30 a.m.

Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law, Professor of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Michael Geist

I don't mean to sound flippant, but my solution would be to compete. Yes, there are large players that have come into the marketplace, but the notion that we're going to close up the Canadian Internet to Google and Facebook when a large part of what they're doing is actually driving traffic to Canadian sites strikes me as a bit of a non-starter.

They're taking a portion of revenues, so I understand the frustration, but I do think that a digital environment with many readers, not just in Canada but on a global basis, suggests there are opportunities for Canadian organizations as well.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Your time is up.

If Ms. Lindgren feels that she wants to comment during another session she can do so, but we have to move on.

We move now to Mr. Maguire for the Conservatives.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to our witnesses today for being here and making your presentations.

Madam Lindgren, I am most interested in your local news research project. You mentioned Brandon—as Peter has mentioned as well—my home area, and I was wondering if you got the coverage of the 200 bushels of wheat that somebody donated to my campaign that we turned into $6,000 at the food grains bank that night.

Anyway, welcome. I am really interested in what you can make available to the committee. Is there work that you have prepared already? You've been going for three months now, is it, with this project?

11:30 a.m.

Prof. April Lindgren

I prepared a brief for the committee that has been circulated, and I have to say Brandon isn't in my data results right now because we had to do a little bit of finishing up of the.... We didn't finish Brandon in time to present it to the committee, but the pattern is that it falls in about the middle of the pack in terms of the availability of local news in that community.

In the brief I have the more detailed study, and going forward we hope to be able to work on this index and then look in more depth at why some communities are better served than others. I think that's the crux of the matter here: to understand what's going on and what's happening in these underserved communities, and to think about how to address the problems in those communities. A solution that might have an impact on a place like Toronto won't necessarily have an impact on a smaller rural community.

I would like to make a point on the earlier discussion about Facebook and Google. For online digital organizations to start up in a smaller community and survive, the issue is that they need eyes on the site. If you're in a community that has 60,000 people in it, your ability to reach enough advertisers at .00, or tiny little fractions of a penny per view, makes it that much more difficult to survive when you have content that's appealing only to that smaller audience because you're focused on local news and events.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

To follow up on that, then, Brandon is 52,000 people. Brampton's still 500,000 or more, as you say, or 600,000, so it's still 10 times larger. You're looking at smaller areas, including Brampton. We're looking at remote and rural areas. I understand that if you're from downtown Toronto, Brampton looks a little rural, but how do you choose the communities and regions that you look at? Does it come from the study that you've done or the calls that you get?

11:35 a.m.

Prof. April Lindgren

When we chose the initial communities for this study, I was looking for a variety of communities. I wanted a rural community, the City of Kawartha Lakes. I was interested in Brandon because I think the local television station closed there a few years ago. I thought it might be interesting to look at the availability of news there for the purpose of comparing it with other small and medium-sized cities that do have a local television station.

What we can do with our data is look at how much news was produced by each local news outlet within the community and see to what extent TV stations are providing the news, versus radio or online sites.

I will add that one of the striking things that we're noticing is that we don't have very many new online sites registered on the map. That might be because people haven't added the information, but it also raises the question of why we aren't seeing a more vibrant response from online news organizations starting up in all sorts of different communities.

The closure of the NewsKamloops site just this week raises some really interesting questions about online news organizations' ability to survive. It was doing quite a good job of replacing and reporting on local news in the absence of the daily newspaper, which closed there in 2014. Now here we are, two years later, and it's gone.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

In your work you were just looking at the independent journalistic ads that were generated in radio, television, and newspapers, not the politically paid ones, right?

11:35 a.m.

Prof. April Lindgren

We didn't look at advertising. We just looked at news stories and news coverage.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

That's what I was asking.

11:35 a.m.

Prof. April Lindgren

We just looked at the actual number of news stories. We gathered data. We wanted to try to get at the quality, and we haven't analyzed that work yet. We looked at the variety of sources quoted in the stories and how long the stories were, and we tried to categorize them as more investigative or enterprise reporting, versus showing up at an event and doing a he-said, she-said coverage of the event. That's the next phase.

We also gathered data on social media posts that had been posted by those news organizations, meaning Twitter and Facebook posts. We were trying to get an idea of the role that social media are playing in the local discussion of the election and in provoking debate and discussion as the election unfolded.