Evidence of meeting #34 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was advertising.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marc Saint-Pierre  Director General, Government Information Services Sector, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Louise de Jourdan  Director, Advertising Coordination and Partnerships, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Julien Brazeau  Associate Deputy Commissioner, Competition Promotion Branch, Competition Bureau
Mark Schaan  Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry
Adam Scott  Director, Business and Regulatory Analysis, Telecommunications Policy Branch, Strategic Policy Sector, Department of Industry
Jeanne Pratt  Senior Deputy Commissioner, Mergers and Monopolistic Practices Branch, Competition Bureau

11:25 a.m.

Director, Advertising Coordination and Partnerships, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Louise de Jourdan

Departments.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

No. Who has the final decision-making when the time comes to choose what type of advertising and what type of media mechanism that you use? I'm trying to look at how we get news out to the rural areas and for our study purpose here.

11:25 a.m.

Director, Advertising Coordination and Partnerships, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Louise de Jourdan

Departments.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Larry Maguire Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Mr. Nantel for the NDP, go ahead.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being with us today. Their comments may help us better understand the purchasing policies and recommendations.

That's the subject I'd like to discuss with you. You made it clear that departments know the objectives of their campaigns as well as their target audience. They are the ones who make the choices. You, on your end, make sure those choices adhere to the various requirements.

First of all, I had a look at your organizational chart. Some 15 people report to Ms. Jourdan. I didn't see your name, Mr. Saint-Pierre. Perhaps it is somewhere else on the chart.

Are the analysts in place able to make media recommendations to the department? For example, this graph clearly shows why those in the print media came to us to say they had lost half of their advertising revenue. It's right there, and it's quite clear that they lost 40% of their previous revenue.

A comparable, and even bigger, increase is noticeable in terms of Internet advertising. Television seems to be the big winner in these investments.

Do you provide a consultation function for the departments? Are you able to offer recommendations, make choices, and monitor trends? Has your team of analysts been cut over the past few years?

November 1st, 2016 / 11:25 a.m.

Director, Advertising Coordination and Partnerships, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Louise de Jourdan

Our role really isn't to make recommendations as far as media planning goes. As I said, our job is to check whether media plans adhere to the applicable policies and legislation.

That said, my group is split into two sections. In one section, analysts review media plans and other things for compliance. In the other section, another team in my directorate is responsible for capacity and resource building, and works on departmental communications.

We offer information and training sessions. That's where we share best practices and talk about trends and research. We develop tools. The goal is to make sure that the people in the departments have everything they need to make sound decisions. We do it to foster better decision-making.

As I said, we provide a variety of information and training sessions.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

Thank you for making it quite clear that the government's advertising purchasing program is not a grants and contributions program to help groups that might have fallen on hard times such as the print media. Ultimately, Industry Canada or the Department of Canadian Heritage, for instance, could choose to create a budget to encourage the purchase of advertising.

You said that it was up to the print media, which is facing fierce competition from new media, to show that it still has a relevant place in the market. That's precisely what we heard from members of the print media. The runaway trend seems to be to throw the baby out with the bathwater and to think that, because everyone is on social media, advertisers are turning away from the print media.

That is the claim, and I'm inclined to believe it. The figures actually back that up. Despite the fact that many people are increasingly turning to new streaming platforms and such, television is still the place where advertisers go because it seems to produce the best results. That's reassuring.

We are politicians. Doing an interview on CTV during prime time will reach a larger audience than if we were to do an interview that was broadcast on some small obscure website aimed at a very specific group of people. Therefore, television does offer that general interest appeal in terms of reaching the public.

You purchase an enormous amount of advertising. Well, not you, per se, but, rather, all the departments. That's a huge account as they say in the advertising world. As a corporate citizen, the Government of Canada should apply best practices. It is expected to be extremely savvy and to spend advertising dollars as effectively as possible. To that end, it might be advisable not to believe the hogwash claims that ad agencies make in an effort to convince clients that this type of advertising has seen its last day and that social media is the far better option.

Rumour has it that ad agencies get big kickbacks from new media. If they buy $100 worth of advertising space on CTV, they get nothing in return. If, however, they buy $100 worth of advertising space from Google or some other programmatic agency, they get a little kickback or something free in return. As a Canadian taxpayer, I would find it comforting to know that my government had an analyst overseeing all of its advertising purchases to make sure ads were taken out in the right places. It's a fair concern.

Do you think agencies would be interested in having that information? Obviously, it's in Parks Canada's best interests to take out ads in Canadian Geographic. We agree on that. Does the federal institution, however, benefit all that much from programmatic advertising on social media? Would it not be a good idea for the government to have an expert to set the record straight on the advertising value of traditional media versus social media?

11:30 a.m.

Director, Advertising Coordination and Partnerships, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Louise de Jourdan

We don't make recommendations per se. We don't review specific advertising campaigns to say whether the right media choices were made. That isn't what we do.

As I said, we provide the departments with the information on the subject. Absolutely no one determines that a certain type of media has no place. Every type of media, including the print media, has a role to play. There is no doubt that, in some cases, the print media is the better choice.

I can't comment on kickbacks, because I'm not at all familiar with that.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC

It's not clear. I was just mentioning it.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Mr. Nantel, thank you very much. We have reached seven minutes.

Ms. Dabrusin, for the Liberals, the floor is yours.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Thank you. I'll be sharing my time with Mr. Vandal.

I'm looking right now at the annual report you provided to us. On page 15, appendix I sets out the Government of Canada advertising process. I just wanted to go through it. The second sentence reads:

It is designed to ensure that advertising activities align with government priorities, meet the communication needs of Canadians, comply with acts, policies and procedures, and provide value for money.

Are those basically your guiding objectives when you're—

11:30 a.m.

Director, Advertising Coordination and Partnerships, Department of Public Works and Government Services

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Are there no other objectives? That would set out—

11:30 a.m.

Director, Advertising Coordination and Partnerships, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Louise de Jourdan

Yes, those objectives are the ones set out in the communications policy.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Perfect.

We have heard from witnesses from different ethnic media, say, the Punjabi Post or the Ukrainian media, about the fact that they have lost advertising in their papers. I was wondering if you had examples. Where are the alternatives, when you are trying to reach people who speak different languages, perhaps not our two official languages, or specific communities, as those papers are? Where is the shift going?

11:30 a.m.

Director, Advertising Coordination and Partnerships, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Louise de Jourdan

I don't know what time period they are talking about. As Marc pointed out, the choice of media relates most importantly to the audience and the objectives. That's important. If there is a need to reach out in a particular way to an ethnic audience, sometimes you have the choice of television, although there is a minimum number. There is radio, and there are social media. We have research to demonstrate that. We also use newspapers. For the census, there was an ethnic media component. Like everything else, it has fallen off.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

If we are using the census as an example, what was the ethnic media component then?

11:35 a.m.

Director, Advertising Coordination and Partnerships, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Louise de Jourdan

I don't have the exact number for the census, but if you want that broken down, I can get it.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

That would be great, just as an example of how it was used previously. It gives us an idea of how we are doing it now.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

You can send that to the clerk, please.

11:35 a.m.

Director, Advertising Coordination and Partnerships, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Louise de Jourdan

Yes, I can absolutely send that.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I believe Mr. Vandal had a question.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Dan Vandal Liberal Saint Boniface—Saint Vital, MB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a similar question. I am wondering about the right of francophone minority communities to have access to news and advertising in French. According to the numbers, the government spent $4.3 million in 2009-10 and $0.7 million in 2014-15.

How can we make sure that francophone minority communities in Manitoba and New Brunswick receive important notices from the federal government on subjects like the census? How can we guarantee the information is made available to them?

11:35 a.m.

Director, Advertising Coordination and Partnerships, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Louise de Jourdan

It's important to recognize that advertising isn't the only means the Government of Canada uses to communicate with Canadians. It is just one of many ways. Significant investments are made in websites. Every department has its own website. The Canada.ca site is now available. All kinds of communication methods are used.

Under the advertising policy, those responsible for preparing media plans are required to ensure equal communications targeting Canadians in minority and majority communities alike.