Evidence of meeting #71 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was discrimination.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jenifer Aitken  Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy, Planning and Corporate Affairs, Department of Canadian Heritage
Gilles Michaud  Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing , Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Ritu Banerjee  Senior Director, Canada Centre for Community Engagement and Prevention of Violence, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Carl Trottier  Assistant Deputy Minister, Governance, Planning and Policy Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Jérôme Moisan  Director General , Strategic Policy, Planning and Research Branch, Department of Canadian Heritage

5:55 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing , Royal Canadian Mounted Police

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

The other question I have is about intersectionality. I have a question for Ms. Aitken as well, but you might be able to tell me from the RCMP side. If there is a hate-motivated crime against a person who has two different minority situations—for example, somebody who is part of the LGBTQ2 community, but who is also a person of colour—how is it tracked? Is it tracked collecting both possible bases for the hate crime?

5:55 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing , Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Gilles Michaud

That's a very good question. I couldn't answer as to how that would be reported, because it would be left up to the police officer who is responding to the event, depending on what he scores on his report. It could be either way, but I would be venturing into unknown territory to say that it's either/or or both.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Would you be able to perhaps provide me with any policies you have that direct officers on how to record that?

5:55 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing , Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Gilles Michaud

Yes, I could look into that.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Okay.

Mr. Moisan, do you have anything to add?

5:55 p.m.

Jérôme Moisan Director General , Strategic Policy, Planning and Research Branch, Department of Canadian Heritage

Some colleagues from Statistics Canada work directly with the police forces and give them training. They're surely aware of the distinctions they must make, and they give tools to the police forces to that effect.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Okay.

5:55 p.m.

Director General , Strategic Policy, Planning and Research Branch, Department of Canadian Heritage

Jérôme Moisan

I would urge the committee to invite them—

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I have only 30 seconds left and I have one more question.

My last question is for you, Ms. Banerjee. You referred to “The Future of Right-Wing Terrorism in Canada”. Do you think it would be helpful, when collecting hate crime data, to also be collecting data on who the suspects are or the people who are found to be committing these crimes?

5:55 p.m.

Senior Director, Canada Centre for Community Engagement and Prevention of Violence, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Ritu Banerjee

To be honest, again, this is probably something for which StatsCan can provide further guidance in terms of what information police are reporting out. They do provide some information on the context of each particular case. I'm not sure from our perspective, when we're assessing threats, or when the security intelligence community is assessing threats, how that necessarily links back to it. We're looking at global threats in particular.

From our perspective, we take advice from the security intelligence community in terms of what's a priority. We'll respond from a global policy perspective to make sure that programs and research are looking at all types of threats.

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you, Ms. Banerjee.

I will now go to David Anderson from the Conservatives, for seven minutes.

5:55 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank our guests for being here with us today.

Deputy Commissioner, I'd just like to talk to you a little about and follow up on Ms. Dabrusin's questions. Do you think there's any need, or any desire or interest, for us to reduce the protection for faith communities across Canada right now? I read that one third of the reported hate crimes in Canada are motivated by hatred of a religion. Would you suggest that this would be a good time to reduce the protections that faith communities have?

5:55 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing , Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Gilles Michaud

Again, we look at criminal activities in and around those religious sites or communities. We will work with whatever law exists in order to make sure they're safe. We do work with them on a regular basis around threat assessments.

It's not necessarily just enshrined in law. It's also enshrined in the work and the relationship we have with these communities, trying to enable them to raise their awareness around security threats that may exist. Some of the police forces of jurisdictions will even provide guidance to them around how to better protect themselves.

6 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

We have Criminal Code provisions right now that prohibit interference with clergy when they're performing their functions as clergy. They prohibit assault or interference with clergymen who are going to or are performing a religious ceremony, prohibit disrupting religious gatherings or worship, and prohibit disturbing or disrupting worship services. Do you think those are good provisions to have in place to protect faith communities in Canada?

6 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing , Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Gilles Michaud

Again, that's not for me to decide. It would be for the government to decide what type of laws they want us to uphold.

6 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Okay, well, I can see what you're doing here, because this is actually something the government has said they're going to be removing from the Criminal Code. Bill C-51 takes out those four provisions. Do you see any reason at this time why we would be removing those protections from faith communities?

6 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing , Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Gilles Michaud

Not that I see. Not that I'm aware of.

6 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

You're not going to comment on that.

Can you take us through your response to an incident? Let's say something happens at a synagogue or a mosque. How do you deal with that? What is the procedure or protocol for the RCMP in dealing with that?

Again, following up on Ms. Dabrusin's comments, at what point would that then be declared a hate crime?

6 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing , Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Gilles Michaud

From our perspective, when a call comes in, police officers are dispatched to the site. We'll conduct interviews of individuals—the victims, the people who might have noticed or who can provide us with information around the related crime—and if a suspect is identified, we'll follow where the evidence leads us.

Then, when we're looking at hate crimes, based on a definition by Stats Canada, that will be the trigger for us to then report it as a hate crime or not. This is based on the information we've collected from the witnesses, from the victims, and even from the suspect or suspects. When it comes to ideology and understanding why a crime was committed, sometimes it's the information that was collected from the suspect.

6 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Does that typically appear, then, when you charge, or is it ahead of time? I'm just wondering at what point you declare this to be a hate crime. Is it when the charges are laid?

6 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing , Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Gilles Michaud

Not necessarily. Some investigations may lead to no charges, yet it can still be, not a hate crime, but hatred in nature. If we're unable to prove all the elements of the offence, we won't be able to lay charges. It doesn't prevent us, though, from indicating that the incident was based on hatred.

6 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

You mentioned terrorism, as well, in your report. At what point would you say that this is maybe a hate crime but it's also a terrorism incident?

6 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing , Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Gilles Michaud

That's a very good question. For us, it's really the intent behind the actions. First of all, it has to be driven by ideology. It is when the intent is to try to instill fear in the broader community and not necessarily in one specific individual. When they're trying to pass a political, religious, or ideological message to a broader community, that's when we start to look at that section 83.01 part of the Criminal Code.

6 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Okay.

We heard a little bit about SIP, which we put in place. Do you have any other extra support you give to religious communities or to religious institutions?