Evidence of meeting #73 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was systemic.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ayesha Chaudhry  Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual
Avvy Yao-Yao Go  Clinic Director, Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic
Shawn Richard  President, Canadian Association of Black Lawyers
Shalini Konanur  Executive Director and Lawyer, South Asian Legal Clinic of Ontario (SALCO)

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I'd like to call to order meeting number 73 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, 42nd Parliament, first session. We're meeting on the issue of systemic racism and religious discrimination, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2).

The first hour, from 3:30 to 4:30, we have two people here: Ayesha Chaudhry, associate professor and chairholder of the Canada research chair in religion, law and social justice. The second person on the panel is Avvy Yao-Yao Go from the Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic. She's clinic director.

Each of you will have 10 minutes, and I'll try to give you a two-minute heads-up. After that, there is a question and answer round. We will do that until 4:30. Then we will move into the second round.

Let's start with Ayesha because she's first on my list.

3:30 p.m.

Ayesha Chaudhry Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual

Thank you, Madam Chair and honourable members, for inviting me to appear before this committee to speak about systemic racism, religious discrimination, and Islamophobia.

I'd like to begin by acknowledging that we are meeting on the traditional unceded territories of the Algonquin Nation.

I appear before you in various capacities. I am an associate professor of gender and Islamic studies at the University of British Columbia. I am the Canada research chair in religion, law, and social justice. I am a Canadian and I am a Muslim. I was born in Toronto. I wore a hijab from when I was five years old. Then I wore a niqab for 10 years, from grade 10 to the end of my master's, through public high school and undergraduate and M.A. degree programs at the University of Toronto. So I appear before you as a scholar, as a brown Muslim South Asian Canadian, who has experienced, I would say, more than my fair share of systemic racism, religious discrimination, and Islamophobia.

Growing up in Toronto, I learned about Canadian multiculturalism. I was a proud Canadian at the same time that others—kids in school, teachers, doctors, cashiers, strangers driving by in cars—told me, in a million subtle and not-so-subtle ways, that I wasn't actually Canadian, that I should go back home, and that I was a terrorist. These people did not believe that the colour of my skin or my religion belonged on the cultural mosaic.

I have always been grateful that I was born and raised in a nation-state that did not force an artificial binary between my religious and national identities; that I was allowed, legally, to be Canadian and Muslim; that I did not have to choose; that in the end I was able to have my journey with my faith, and that this journey has not revolved around state oppression. But I've also always been acutely aware of the Canadians who have hated me and have resented the state for protecting my rights—the right to free speech and the right to religious freedom, which is to say the right to dress as I please. These Canadians have curled their lips, hurled insults at me, refused to render me services, and even made death threats against my family.

None of these countless experiences have made it into any documented hate crime reports. It takes an incredible amount of energy to just survive these experiences, never mind thrive in the face of them. To have a hate crime recorded is no easy task, as those of us who have encountered the police know well. Reporting demands tremendous emotional labour from victims. When my parents reported the death threat calls we were receiving in the middle of the night, that were filled with hateful language against Muslims and Arabs, the police, over the phone, told us not to worry about it. The police told my mother that they were probably just fooling around, making prank calls. So we, the children, slept huddled around her in the living room of the house, afraid that someone might actually come and kill us while my father was away, working the night shift.

Madam Chair, it is deeply painful for me to watch discussions about Muslim Canadians, even when we are the victims of violence, revolve around Islamic extremism and radicalization. The questions raised for me by this persistent move are as follows: Who is Canadian? Whose security matters in Canada? Who deserves to feel safe? Whose extremism is alarming? What kind of radicalization can be tolerated? When a self-declared Trump- and Le Pen-supporting white nationalist, far-right white supremacist, white male radicalized on the Internet walks into a mosque and executes Muslims in the act of prayer, and a motion is tabled to study the roots of Islamophobia to prevent such acts of terror given the alarming rise in Islamophobia, how on earth does a discussion come to be framed around Muslim extremism and radicalization?

It is wrong-headed to treat those in need of protection from crimes as the perpetrators of crimes, to blame the victim, to shame the vulnerable. We can only do this if we believe and behave as if Muslims and Islam are fundamentally and inherently violent. This is Islamophobia.

As a scholar, I see my role here as recommending to the committee a theoretical framework for their mandate and offering clarification around key terms that are central to these hearings. Let's start with “intersectionality” and its relevance to racism and discrimination.

What is beautiful about intersectionality is that it is a theory rooted in experience. It was coined by black scholar Kimberlé Crenshaw, who noted that women of colour experience compounded discrimination, as their colour, gender, class, sexuality, etc., weigh down upon them cumulatively. Their oppressions are compounded, while people with privilege, white men, for example, experience compounded privilege based on their colour, gender, class, sexuality, etc.

Intersectionality argues that as multi-dimensional humans moving through time and space, we are always at varying and fluid intersecting influences of power. For example, white women might face oppression because of sexism, but they enjoy the privileges of whiteness. Similarly, patriarchy may privilege a man of colour, but his colour puts him at a disadvantage in a racist system.

None of these influences—race, class, gender, sexuality, religion—are essential to who we are. Their meanings are not defined. They are not inevitable. Rather, they are constructed. We as a society create meanings around and sustain them collectively and individually. We decide that men are better than women, worthier than women, when we pay women less for the same job. We decide that white people are better than people of colour when white people dominate in positions of power.

In light of intersectionality, we can see that racism, sexism, bigotry, Islamophobia, all of these things reduce complex, multi-dimensional individuals to the worst caricatures of only one of their identities, flattening even this one identity to its derogatory extreme. Rather than facilitating critique and dialogue, such behaviour chills difficult conversations. It obliterates communal differences, turning complex communities into homogeneous entities. When these attitudes are absorbed and internalized by social institutions, they become systemic.

When a population is overrepresented in any institutional context, this is a reflection of systemic inequality, to the detriment of some, and to the advantage of others. Think here about white men in CEO positions and indigenous and black people in Canadian federal prisons.

“Systemic” alerts us to the fact that we are discussing prejudice that is not just widespread and common, but that has come to be enshrined in the institutions of a society, such that it has become invisible to many. It is not obvious all the time, although sometimes it is. It is not located alone in individual people, although it resides there too. It transcends any one individual or group and their personal intentions. Most people think of themselves as good. Most people do not view themselves as racist, sexist, Islamophobic, although they may think and behave as such, individually and collectively.

When we focus on the systemic, some of our questions become irrelevant. For instance, is Islamophobia the right term in M-103, or is anti-Muslim more appropriate? Is this about Islam or Muslims? Systemic hate is not that sophisticated. It does not know to draw a line between Islam and Muslims. Consider that between 2012 and 2015, hate crimes against Muslims have increased a staggering 253%. That is not because of lone individuals, but because systemic racism has encouraged about a half of our population to fear Islam and Muslims without needing to differentiate between the two.

Consider that a 2017 Angus Reid poll tells us that 46% of Canadians have an unfavourable opinion of Islam. According to a 2016 Leger poll, 43% of Canadians have a negative opinion of Muslims. A 2016 poll found that more than half, 55%, of Ontarians—Ontario is the province I was born in, and where we sit today—believe that mainstream Islamic doctrines promote violence. It is ugly, shameful, and systemic when close to half the population of one of the most peaceful nations on earth hates the second largest religion on earth and its adherents.

Let us sit with these numbers. If close to half of Canadians have a negative opinion of Muslims, have an unfavourable opinion of Islam, and associate Islam with violence, then the alarming increase in hate crimes against Muslims is actually unsurprising. When a group of people are dehumanized or demonized, violence against them becomes normalized. These numbers tell us that the democratic foundations of Canada stand threatened. Children, young adults, teenagers, and adults are formed by their experiences of Islamophobia.

Every space Muslims find themselves in—public schools, courtrooms, parks, universities, coffee shops, yoga studios, even this very room—become potential sites of heartbreak and inequality. We start from a deficit. We must prove we're not violent, that we are one of the good ones, that we are not like the others. In this light, everything is skewed—our grades, merit, the legal and justice system, and governance. The hate consumes all of us, the hated and haters, and the hate weakens our democratic institutions.

I am grateful for motion M-103 and the work of this committee because, in focusing on the systemic nature of hate, it names a serious threat facing our democracy and offers us an opportunity—an opportunity to be better.

Madam Chair, we can be better.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Ms. Yao-Yao Go.

3:40 p.m.

Avvy Yao-Yao Go Clinic Director, Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic

Thank you, Dr. Fry and committee members.

My name is Avvy Go. I'm the clinic director of the Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic, formerly known as the Metro Toronto Chinese and Southeast Asian Legal Clinic. We are a non-profit organization that provides free legal services to low-income members of the Chinese and southeast Asian communities in Ontario. We are also a founding member of the Colour of Poverty-Colour of Change network, which is a network of individuals and organizations working to advance racial equality and racial justice in Ontario.

I want to thank the committee for giving us an opportunity to comment on motion M-103. Our submissions and recommendations are based largely on the joint shadow report that we submitted recently to the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination during its review of Canada's compliance with ICERD. Many of the recommendations we put forward have been adopted by the UN CERD committee. These recommendations are just as relevant to this study that the committee is looking at.

We see the adoption of motion M-103 as a starting point for much-needed discussions about systemic racism, Islamophobia, and other forms of racism and hate targeting communities of colour in particular. In studying racism and discrimination, it's critical for the committee to focus not only on the individual acts of hate and racism but, as mentioned, to also explore systemic racism from a socio-economic perspective so as to identify key barriers facing racialized communities.

The committee should also critically examine government laws and policies that negatively impact racialized communities, in order to make concrete recommendations for positive change. In our written submission, we provided several examples of how systemic racism and hate affect members of racialized groups. I'm going to highlight just a couple in my 10 minutes this afternoon, starting with discrimination in the labour market.

There are significant racialized and gendered wage and employment gaps in Canada. For instance, data from the 2011 national household survey show that women of colour earned 32% less than non-racialized men, and immigrant women earned 28% less than non-immigrant men. Wage gaps increase for indigenous women, women of colour, and immigrant women with university degrees. There are multiple studies that confirm employers discriminate against job applicants with Asian-sounding names, who are 33% to 37% less likely to get a callback for interviews.

As a result of the labour market discrimination, poverty in Canada has also become racialized. The last census shows that 18.7% of racialized families live in poverty as compared to only 6% of non-racialized families, yet the federal government's current national poverty reduction strategy makes little or no mention of how it would address poverty experienced by communities of colour.

Racism also exists in the immigration system. Historically, Canada has always used race as a factor to determine who gets in. The most notorious of these examples, of course, is the Chinese head tax and exclusion act. While of course today government can no longer overtly use race as a selection criterion, systemic barriers continue for racialized communities coming from the global south. This is most evident in the changes to family class immigration over the last two decades, including the recently imposed annual cap of 10,000 for applicants sponsoring parents and grandparents, and the significantly stricter minimum annual income requirements for the sponsors. As racialized Canadians have systemically poorer labour market outcomes, and given that the vast majority of these family class immigrants come from the global south, including China and India, these changes disproportionately impede reunification of racialized families.

To combat racism in all its forms, we need a commitment from all orders of government, and we need the federal government to take the leadership role in this regard. We've put forward a number of recommendations which, if adopted, will go a long way to address racism and hate. I'm going to highlight them.

The Canadian government should develop a national action plan against racism, based on full consultation with indigenous peoples, people of colour, and non-governmental organizations working to advance racial justice in Canada. I encourage the committee to look to the Ontario government's model as an example of what that action may look like.

The government should adopt a race equity lens in the development of all laws, policies, and programs to properly consider and measure the impact of its actions on racialized communities.

The government should collect and track this aggregated race-based data across all government departments, ministries, and institutions, and use this data to develop strategies for addressing racism and measuring the impact of these strategies.

The government should also centre the problem of racialization of poverty in the national poverty reduction strategy and reinstate mandatory compliance with employment equity for federal contractors.

It should also work with all the provinces and territories to introduce and enforce employment equity legislation and develop a provincial poverty reduction strategy that will focus on the racialization of poverty.

The government should amend the Criminal Code to take hate motivation into account more effectively and introduce standards for identifying and recording all hate incidents and their dispensation in the justice system.

Finally, the government should engage with the most affected communities to address the disproportionate overrepresentation of indigenous communities and African Canadians and other racialized communities in the criminal justice system.

In conclusion, I encourage and welcome the fact that we are naming the issue of racism and hate but, more importantly, we need concrete action to end discrimination.

Thank you for your time.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

Now I'm going to move to the question section. Our first round is seven-minutes, but that seven minutes includes the question and the answer. Everyone needs to be very concise because I'll cut you off.

We will begin with Anju Dhillon for the Liberals.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC

Madam Chair, I will be sharing my time with MP Virani.

I would like to thank the witnesses for coming today.

Thank you for sharing your story, Ms. Chaudhry, and the tragic events you've gone through throughout your life.

How did you come to the definition of Islamophobia?

3:45 p.m.

Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual

Ayesha Chaudhry

I think a lot of definitions of Islamophobia have been floating around. Dr. Jasmin Zine has a great definition of Islamophobia when she talks about widespread ideological and systemic expressions of Islamophobia. It's based on the fear of Muslims, but it's not restricted to a hyperbolic fear of Muslims.

I think her definition is sufficient, and I support it. I haven't come up with a definition of Islamophobia. I think in her use of that term and in her framing of it she thinks anti-Muslim is an expression of Islamophobia, but Islamophobia is broader than that.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC

What concrete changes would you like to see in the system? Could you identify some problems in the system with examples and solutions you'd like to see for some of them, please?

3:50 p.m.

Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual

Ayesha Chaudhry

The Ontario Human Rights Commission appeared before this committee last week. I listened to the hearings, and the strategies they're offering seem really interesting to me.

I can't think of particular things that I would like to see done, but I am really excited to see M-103 has been passed and that this committee has been struck to address these issues.

I want to go back for a second to the issue of Islamophobia and the ideological underpinnings of it. I think it's useful to think about Islamophobia, building on what I was saying earlier. There are people who believe there is a civilizational war between Islam and the west, and even though that is a categoric error, because Islam is a religion; it's 1.6 million people who live everywhere right now, including in what we would call the west, and the west is a geographic region, nevertheless it is an entrenched way of thinking.

I think that education, for example, is a really important measure for us to take when we're thinking about combatting Islamophobia and systemic racism, but it's really important to not just stop at education. If we only think of education as a solution, then we think that the problem is ignorance. That is one of the problems we have to think about.

Islamophobia also comes from a sense of self-interest and self-preservation for people who believe they're engaged in this cosmological epic war between Islam and the west. That would require a counter-narrative to the rising sense of a beleaguered civilization. That's an example of having to be multipronged and also for us to rely on the robust laws that we have around hate speech to curtail speech that is expressly racist or discriminates against any religious group or is Islamophobic.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC

You mentioned the staggering statistic of 253%. May I ask where you obtained this statistic regarding anti-Muslim sentiment?

3:50 p.m.

Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual

Ayesha Chaudhry

It was reported on Global News. The number of hate crimes recorded in 2012 was 45, and in 2015 it was 159. I can send you the rest of the reference for that.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC

Yes, please.

Can you please tell us what these hate crimes encompass?

3:50 p.m.

Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual

Ayesha Chaudhry

I don't know what they encompass.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC

Okay.

3:50 p.m.

Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual

Ayesha Chaudhry

It's whatever has been recorded by the police as hate crimes.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC

Okay, but there are no specific categories as to exactly what they were: beatings, insults hurled—

3:50 p.m.

Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual

Ayesha Chaudhry

Not that I'm aware of. That wasn't recorded in what I was looking at.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC

Okay. What would you add to the definition of Islamophobia?

3:50 p.m.

Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual

Ayesha Chaudhry

I am pleased with the existing definition of Islamophobia. I don't feel that I would add anything to it.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC

Since you received the threatening phone calls at home and until now, in your personal life have you seen any changes, any betterment of these circumstances?

3:50 p.m.

Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual

Ayesha Chaudhry

I think the polls show that things are worse, not better, if we look at the report on hate crimes between 2012 and 2015.

There are a few reasons that I started with my story. One, and this is something that has been brought to the committee before, is that it's important to analyze data in the light of experience. I think it's also important to have theory that is rooted in experience. I was growing up pre-9/11, so I know that post-9/11 things have been much worse for Muslims in Canada. I think Dr. Jasmin Zine's work really addresses that. She looks carefully at what it is like for Muslim children to grow up in a post-9/11 world in Canada. To be honest, it breaks my heart when I think about that and when I hear the stories in my community. It makes me really sad that these children are growing up feeling like they don't want to disclose that they're Muslim, that there are children who wear a hajib who are having stones thrown at them, that they're being harassed in all sorts of different ways, that their teachers are making fun of their names. I didn't ever have a teacher make fun of my name and I don't know how that would have felt if that had happened to me. I think that things are worse and it makes me worried.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC

This is part of the systemic discrimination—

3:55 p.m.

Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC

—at school. You said that when you would call the police to report this, they would just say how it's just a funny prank—

3:55 p.m.

Associate Professor and Chairholder of Canada Research Chair in Religion, Law and Social Justice, As an Individual

Ayesha Chaudhry

Right, when I was a child. Yes, when my mother called the police, that's what they told her.