Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 16th, 2017

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Okay. I appreciate that.

I'll mention some of the things that have come up in terms of ideas, and I'd love to get your comments as to whether or not you think these would be good ideas.

One is a national action plan. Another is an educational component that goes right across the country. It could be at all the different levels of education, creating a counter-narrative to what exists right now. It could include different stories around how we should be talking about different religions, different cultures, diversity, and the strength of this country.

What do you think about any of those ideas?

[Laurence Worthen]

I think those are all really good ideas, but I think it has to start at the top. I don't want my presentation—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have two minutes.

[Laurence Worthen]

—to be perceived as being political, because it's not meant that way. I've seen evidence of this in all the parties.

I think Parliament has to come to the point where you recognize that people who are MPs shouldn't have to leave their religion at the door when they sit in Parliament. I'm sorry to say it, but it has to start at the top. You have to start right from the Prime Minister down to create a culture that says it's okay to be a devout Christian, it's okay to be a devout Muslim, it's okay to disagree with abortion, it's okay to disagree with euthanasia; you can still be a member of our party. You should not be excluded from—

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Just because I have only 50 seconds left, that point was made very clearly, and I thank you for reiterating it.

I have one other question. What role do you think that community groups can have in a national plan against systemic racism and discrimination? What role do you think that governments can include community groups in?

[Laurence Worthen]

That's a great question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 30 seconds.

[Laurence Worthen]

For 12 years I worked in the not-for-profit sector. I think government can play a role in getting these various agencies and community groups together and helping them to dialogue and network, and together I think they can have a tremendous positive influence on the culture.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Very well done, Mr. Worthen. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Ms. Dzerowicz.

I'm going to move to David Anderson for the Conservatives.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here.

Mr. Worthen, I want to follow up on that a bit. A couple of other witnesses said that the key is getting communities together, and that it's not the government initiating all this in some massive plan and it's not the amount of money spent on it. What would be your thoughts on that aspect? Is it important that we get people together, or is it important that we spend a pile of taxpayers' money on this effort?

[Laurence Worthen]

Well, we're trying to influence a culture, and that's never easy. It's not a simple program; it's changing people's hearts. Again, at the risk of nagging you as MPs, I think it has to start at the top.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Do we need legislation to protect conscience rights in legislatures across this country?

[Laurence Worthen]

I believe so, yes. Manitoba's already put legislation forward, but I think it has to be.... With the way our politicians conduct themselves across Canada, do they respect religion? That's my question. If I say that my relationship with God will be dramatically impacted if I'm forced to do something against my will and a politician says to me that I have to do it anyway, we have a serious problem in this country. I've had numerous politicians, members of these parties, tell me that.

You have to start right there. You have to start in the House of Commons. Are you going to respect people's relationship with their god in the way that you cast your vote in Parliament? It has to start there.

However, I also believe that government has a role in calling people together for a national conversation. I completely agree with that, and as I mentioned before, working with not-for-profit organizations for 12 years, I know they can be a tremendous force for social change.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

You represent an association of Christian medical and dental personnel. Is this discrimination that you find only against Christians? Is it more an issue of faith, or is it more an issue of being a Christian?

[Laurence Worthen]

No, I think the discrimination is across the board—Orthodox Jews, for instance. It's ironic, because 50 years ago Jews weren't allowed in certain professions in Canada. Now we run the risk of driving them out of certain aspects of medical care. Muslim doctors have expressed extreme concern to us when we've met with them about this. Sikhs, Buddhists, other religious physicians, nurses, and other health care professionals are very concerned about the crisis to conscience in Canada.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Do you have specific recommendations? If you don't have them today, can you send them? Do you have specific recommendations or suggestions that this committee or the government might look at implementing to deal with these issues?

[Laurence Worthen]

Yes. Perhaps it might be best if I could draft something and send it to you. Would that be helpful?

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

That would be fine. We accept written submissions. We've talked to others about recommendations. We have received a number of them, but I would like to hear your specific recommendations about how to deal with conscience rights that protect people of faith across the board.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Please send it to the clerk.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Dr. Emil, I think the definition of Islamophobia that you referred to is that we should be talking about an irrational fear of Islam, but you had talked earlier about codified Saudi law and Pakistani law and how opposition in any form is basically seen as Islamophobia.

Can we have a definition that is different from what we have in other places in this world and expect that this word would then be used with any value to it? We have about eight or nine definitions of Islamophobia now at this committee. Can you talk to that a bit?

Across the table particularly, we seem to have the sense that there's a definition of Islamophobia that's very different from what's used in other places around the world. Can we do that, or do we all have to agree on the word to be able to use it properly?

[Dr. Sherif Emil]

Sir, I'm going to be very straightforward. That word needs to be removed from the vocabulary. It does not apply to any other religion. Why are we using it for Islam?

We can look at the Catholic church and its sexual abuse scandal. Even though less than one-tenth of one per cent of the priests committed abuse, imagine if we had said that this had nothing to do with the Catholic church and it was just a small group. However, what did we do? We looked at the culture of the church and we held the church accountable. We looked at how the process worked out and we held the Catholic church accountable for its abuses.

We didn't do that with Islam. We look at these deviant groups and say that they are the exception, that Islam is tolerant. Where is it tolerant? I would like to know, because I've lived in one Muslim country after another and I've travelled, but I have yet to find an Islamic society that actually respects its minorities, allows freedom of faith, allows change of faith, or gives equal rights, not to people who immigrate to its land but to those who are the indigenous populations of the land.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have two minutes.

[Dr. Sherif Emil]

The extreme comes from the mainstream. That word “Islamophobia” is used every time we criticize the mainstream, the basic tenets of how Islam is practised in what you call moderate nations. That word needs to be removed from our vocabulary. Let's talk about hate of Muslims. It exists. Let's talk about discrimination against Muslims. It exists, just as it exists with many other faiths. Let's talk about that, but let's remove the word “Islamophobia” and do away with all definitions.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Can you give me some direction on how you think this committee could address this issue of hatred against Muslims and hatred against other faiths? What are some effective recommendations that we can make that would deal with that issue in this country?

[Dr. Sherif Emil]

I think the honourable member suggested several excellent ways. I believe that this is not a way to legislate. I have lived in societies where the government has tried to legislate against certain thinking, whether ugly or positive. It does not work. You cannot legislate against racism. You can legislate against what racism does, but you cannot legislate against racist thought. That's an ugly thought that you have to address through church groups, through community groups, and through advocacy groups. That's how you target that.

The government's passing a law is not going to get rid of racism.