Evidence of meeting #77 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was muslim.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Thank you.
I think I have less than half a minute.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
You will pass. Thank you.
We then go to Jenny Kwan for the New Democrats.
October 16th, 2017 / 4:05 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you to both of our witnesses for their presentation.
I guess there has been much discussion about the definition of Islamophobia and the usage of it, or whether to use it. I just want to say that in from one of our previous meetings there was a simple definition that was being offered for consideration as a working definition. I quote: “Islamophobia is simply anti-Muslim discrimination or hate.”
We all know that anti-Semitism means something like anti-Jewish discrimination or hate. We also know that homophobia means something like anti-gay or anti-LGBTQ discrimination or hate. Using logic, it's not that hard to extend that thinking to Islamophobia. It's on this premise that I use that word in this context, because I find that definition quite simple and one that we can use as a working definition.
I want to pause here and ask Dr. Emil whether or not that is an acceptable working definition for the purposes of what we're trying to accomplish here.
4:05 p.m.
Professor and Associate Chair, Department of Pediatric Surgery, Faculty of Medecine, McGill University, Director, Pediatric General and Thoracic Surgery, Montreal Children's Hospital, As an Individual
No. It's an incorrect definition. Phobia is fear. I mean, we have to be responsible for how we use words. Phobia is fear.
If you were afraid of walking down the stairs, I would call that phobia. I wouldn't call it hate of the stairs. Therefore, no, ma'am, that is not a correct definition, and unfortunately, it's not just the definition, but how the definition is used.
I've given you real examples of people who have been put in prison because of how the definition was used. How am I going to guarantee that what I told you today, if we use the definition that you just mentioned, isn't going to be considered Islamophobia and that I would have just done something illegal under Canadian law a year or two years or five years from now? How do I guarantee that? How do I guarantee that somebody is not going to interpret, from what I said, based on that simple definition, that I had just engaged in anti-Islamic thought?
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
It's because part of what we have in Canadian society is criminal law associated with hate crimes. That is the definition Canada utilizes to determine if there's a violation of a particular law, in that instance, so it has to be put in that context. I would argue, then, that what would be prosecuted would be based on the legal definition of a hate crime.
4:05 p.m.
Professor and Associate Chair, Department of Pediatric Surgery, Faculty of Medecine, McGill University, Director, Pediatric General and Thoracic Surgery, Montreal Children's Hospital, As an Individual
Are Muslims not currently protected on hate crimes?
4:05 p.m.
Professor and Associate Chair, Department of Pediatric Surgery, Faculty of Medecine, McGill University, Director, Pediatric General and Thoracic Surgery, Montreal Children's Hospital, As an Individual
Why do we need a specific category for Islamophobia if they're already protected on hate crimes, just like every other faith?
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
The motion was highlighting the issue of Islamophobia simply because there was a rise of hate crimes against people of that faith. That, I believe, was the reason it was included, although the motion itself does not exclude, and in fact it goes out of its way to include, all forms of discrimination.
I guess we can debate the definition for a long time, but I'm running out of time, so I want to get into this other aspect on systemic discrimination. Thank you, Dr. Emil; I'm glad to hear that you haven't experienced systemic discrimination. It's really good to hear that.
While others have experienced systemic discrimination, and while you say there can't be laws to deal with that, what about education? Would education be an important aspect that governments should involve themselves in to ensure that people learn about the differences in religion and race, and the similarities as well?
4:10 p.m.
Professor and Associate Chair, Department of Pediatric Surgery, Faculty of Medecine, McGill University, Director, Pediatric General and Thoracic Surgery, Montreal Children's Hospital, As an Individual
Yes, 100%, but the devil is in the details.
In Quebec we have a multiculturalism law whereby every school has to teach that every religion is acceptable and that what we learn at home is no more special than what we're told in school. That's how it is in Quebec. Loyola fought that. The high school fought that, because it wanted to teach the Christian faith. It is a high school's right. It is the right of parents to teach their children their faith. Yes, I agree, education is a superb way to do it, but it depends on how you do it.
When the state starts telling children what they should learn and that they are to ignore what their parents teach them, no, the state has gone too far.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
I'm talking about education in terms of.... We know that hate is a learned behaviour. We also know that discrimination is a learned behaviour. That's certainly from my own personal experience. What we need to be very mindful of is to teach all people, children and adults, to be culturally aware, and to face awareness as well, around the differences among all of us. Sometimes that too is misrepresented, even by adults in the education system.
Would you say it is important, then, for government as a whole to come forward with an approach to ensure there is appropriate training and education even for adults themselves, so that they can pass that information along regarding cultural sensitivity?
4:10 p.m.
Professor and Associate Chair, Department of Pediatric Surgery, Faculty of Medecine, McGill University, Director, Pediatric General and Thoracic Surgery, Montreal Children's Hospital, As an Individual
I have no disagreement with that idea and I would support it, but this issue is not just about Canada. This issue is about what Canada believes on the world stage and what it advocates for around the world. Canada is very silent when it comes to what's happening in Islamic societies. It does not advocate for the rights of minorities. It does not advocate for equal citizenship. It does not advocate or advance its values. It often apologizes for those values, and that's incorrect.
4:10 p.m.
Professor and Associate Chair, Department of Pediatric Surgery, Faculty of Medecine, McGill University, Director, Pediatric General and Thoracic Surgery, Montreal Children's Hospital, As an Individual
May I give an example, so I'm not speaking in generalities?
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Sorry, but I have less than one minute now.
I wanted to give Mr. Worthen a chance to kick in here for a minute and focus on the recommendations.
Would you support the government taking an approach to education and training with respect to cultural sensitivity and interfaith differences so that we can ensure that we don't go down the path of teaching hate and discrimination advertently or inadvertently?
4:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Christian Medical and Dental Society of Canada
Yes, I would, but there's one proviso. You can't do it in a way that promotes secularism or do it from a secular perspective. That would be the only proviso I would have, because what's going on here, as I tried to explain in my comments, is that secularism is seen as an objective space, but in fact it isn't. It is its own religion, so if there's going to be sensitivity, there has to be sensitivity across the board.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
I'm so sorry, Mr. Worthen, but the seven minutes are up.
We'll move on to Mr. Breton for the Liberals for seven minutes, please.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will share my time with Mr. Arif Virani.
I would like to thank all the witnesses for being here and taking part in our important study.
I will continue in the same vein as Ms. Kwan and will talk about education.
In recent weeks, speakers have told us that, in some ways, the lack of education leads to a lot of disinformation in workplaces, at school, and elsewhere, contributing to a climate of hate and fear.
We have talked a lot about the potential role of the government. Some agree about that role while others do not.
What role could community or religious leaders play to counter disinformation throughout our community?
Dr. Emil, you may answer first.
4:15 p.m.
Professor and Associate Chair, Department of Pediatric Surgery, Faculty of Medecine, McGill University, Director, Pediatric General and Thoracic Surgery, Montreal Children's Hospital, As an Individual
I think dialogue is where everything starts and where everything ends. We need to speak to each other. We need dialogue.
Again, the context of the dialogue is extremely important. I can tell you in absolute honesty why my community is not very engaged in dialogue with other groups that come from the same nation, Muslim groups. It's because there's a very strong sense of denial of what's happening in their own community. Many of the Egyptian expatriate Muslim groups do not admit that there's discrimination in Egypt. They do not admit that Christians are rejected.
If you look at the proportions of the Egyptian expatriate population in Canada, it's about 70% Christian and 30% Muslim, whereas the population in Egypt is almost the opposite, with 90% Muslim. Why do Christians leave the Middle East? Is it because they don't like the land of their birth? When you are engaged in dialogue with groups that do not admit to causing the pain that you've suffered in your life, it's very difficult to continue that dialogue.
Dialogue is important, but it has to be frank and honest. We have to be able to speak to each other honestly about our pain. Of course, most Muslims have not participated in events or killed anybody. We all know that. Most of them are excellent citizens who want to have an excellent life in Canada. However, it's still important to be engaged and to be honest about the societies we come from. When you meet with other religious groups for dialogue, it is important to be able to actually listen to them, not to immediately jump into a defensive stance. Unfortunately, that's what often happens when interreligious dialogue starts.
Al-Azhar, which I've quoted several times, has been very much engaged in that. They're happy to engage in dialogue with the Pope and with others, as long as Islamophobia is on the top of the list.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC
Thank you for your testimony, Dr. Emil.
Mr. Worthen, would you like to add anything regarding disinformation?
4:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Christian Medical and Dental Society of Canada
I apologize for not being able to respond to you in your first language.
I go back to the same thing. I think there's a tremendous need for improved and increased dialogue and for what I would call a deep pluralism, a pluralism that does not shy away from our differences but articulates them, develops them, and understands them.
I think that's what we need, and I think Canada could be a world leader in this endeavour. However, again I caution, because the promotion of secularism that I see going on within our government is a real concern. It's going to be very hard to get Christians and other religious groups to the table with government, to trust government, if government on the other side is actually taking action to discriminate against people because of their religious beliefs.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Pierre Breton Liberal Shefford, QC
Thank you, Mr. Worthen.
Mr. Chair, I will give Mr. Virani the rest of my speaking time.