Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 18th, 2017

[Sikander Hashmi]

Interfaith work is extremely important. We try as much as possible to find opportunities for interaction. As Rabbi Bulka mentioned, there's an event happening tonight at his synagogue, and I'm actually one of the panellists.

It appears that each community comes with its own preconceived notions about others. When faith leaders get together from different faiths, it sends a very strong message of co-operation. That doesn't mean that we're not going to disagree on things or that we don't have fundamental disagreements; of course we do. However, it also shows that we are able to come together for things that we do agree upon, and there are in fact many things that we agree on and causes that we can work together for. I think these initiatives are key, whether they're blood drives, panel discussions, dinners, or open houses at mosques.

I just want to say that Canada is really unique. I went with a delegation from Ottawa to visit the mosque that was firebombed in Peterborough, and it was just amazing to see the outpouring of support for the Muslim community across political lines, religious lines—you name it. Everyone was out there.

What was most remarkable was that the management of the mosque told me that they had a problem because they didn't know whose offer to take for the following Friday. The churches had approached them, the local synagogue had approached them, and they didn't know who to turn down and who to go to. Eventually, what ended up happening, I believe, was that the first Friday after the mosque was firebombed they went to the local United Church, and then the following two Fridays they were at the local synagogue. Where else in the world would you see that happening? To me, that is something beautiful.

These are the types of things that need to be shared and highlighted. What often happens is that there are small events that happen, but the wider community doesn't get to know about them. That could be one of the things perhaps that could be highlighted in a national public awareness campaign.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you.

I have a question for you. You gave us six suggestions on how we might deal with some of these issues outside your community. You're a leader in your community. How do you deal with radicalism? You talked about violent radicals who claim to speak for Islam. Do you have a protocol within your organization to deal with a situation like we had in Montreal, with the sermons and those kinds of things? How do you deal with that? Can you tell us a little bit about that? I think the public would like to know.

[Sikander Hashmi]

Each community will deal with the circumstances as they come up. I can tell you that there was an instance where a gentleman had stood up after Friday services at a local mosque and had expressed support for the Parliament Hill shooter. The authorities were called, and he was taken care of.

If we have instances of people espousing views that are considered to be radical or illegal, there is definitely action that needs to be taken. As a council, we have issued advisories to our members and to all imams to be very careful about how they present historical texts or incidents that we have had happen in the past, and to be very careful that they are not breaking the law or spreading hate, which of course should not be happening.

The fact is that generally people who have radical views do not come to our mosques. They don't approach us. They have a term for us. Do you know what they call us? They call us “coconuts”. It's a derogatory term.

A lot of them are on the Internet. If they come to the mosque or the services, they are most of the time not going to speak up, because they know their views are not going to get any traction with the mosque leadership. That's why they hide in the shadows. However, if such views or such individuals do come forward or we come to know of them, depending on the severity of the situation, perhaps it will be a tip to the authorities, as in the one from a Canadian imam about the Via Rail terror plot. If we feel that the questioner is just confused or it's a sincere question, we'll try to rationalize with him and guide him. It really depends on the situation.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

We are just about running out of time, but I want my colleague—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have one minute.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Okay.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON]

We'll probably get a short round afterwards, so I might be able to come back to it.

I wanted to take a minute, first of all, to say something in confirmation to what you just said. Stephen Harper once told me that our best source of intelligence is actually imams in Canada, who are anxious to deal with people who are misguided and who are going in the wrong direction. No one would be in a better position to know that than he would be, because he was prime minister and had information about terror plots passed on to him by CSIS

The question I wanted to ask is this, and maybe you will have a chance to think about it for when we get back during the next round of questioning. My reading of Islam is that hatred of Jews is non-Quranic and that it primarily comes from some discredited Hadith. As someone who is not a Muslim, I am in no position to criticize those who are going in the wrong direction. I was going to ask how you deal with people who are just ignorant of the faith, but nonetheless are sincere in their holding of those views.

[Sikander Hashmi]

That's a good question.

For every verse or prophetic saying or tradition that can be misinterpreted or misunderstood, there is always another one that can act as a counterbalance to show that the misinterpretation and the misunderstanding is not correct. Anti-Semitism, of course, is wrong, and as you correctly pointed out, it's not coming from the Quran. Also, even if someone were to look at the prophetic teachings, there would be a number of examples of cordial and positive relations with Jewish people.

I think it's those types of teachings that have to be shared and disseminated. That's one thing we try to do, especially when there is an issue that comes up. Many Canadian imams will tackle the issue head-on at Friday prayers and give an overarching view so that there are no misrepresentations or misunderstandings based on cherry-picking. Unfortunately, that's what radical extremists like to do, and haters as well. They like to cherry-pick, whereas the Islamic teachings are based on a compendium of teachings.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Hashmi.

Now I go to Jenny Kwan for the New Democrats for seven minutes, please.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I thank our witnesses for their presentations as well.

Ms. Thomas, your recommendation for us is to have a national action plan. In fact, you are exactly right. Other witnesses before this committee had echoed that call as well.

Within that plan, do you envision, for example, a reporting-out mechanism or some sort of accountability mechanism, and then also resourcing that plan? How do we ensure that this plan will actually be supported by the government in the sense of creating the outcomes we all want to see achieved?

[Tamara Thomas]

Those are both fundamental and very important aspects to any success that would come from introducing and developing a national action plan to combat racism. The original plan had both of those things. There was an accountability element and a mechanism for reporting, and there was a provision of funding over the five-year lifetime of that plan that was to help take concrete action based on the issues and goals that had been identified therein.

Both of those things are necessary in this situation. Oftentimes, what happens if there is no method by which to ensure that actions and concrete steps are being taken on the issue areas and plans laid out in such documents, action won't be taken, or at least not at the speed that it needs to be.

In the creation of a national action plan, it would be mandatory to have some kind of reporting mechanism, some kind of accountability—a report card, a checking-in time, timelines, deadlines, etc. Those accountability mechanisms would also need to be made public. The public would need to know what the deadlines are and what the government is being held to, so that there is also that further level of accountability from the grassroots as well.

In terms of funding, a lot of the ways in which to solve some of the major problems that would be identified in a national action plan would be through the provision of funding to community groups and organizations. That would need to be specifically identified within the plan itself, so that it too can be held up to those accountability measures that would be identified.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Hashmi, I wonder if you can comment on that same issue as well, in terms of recommendations. Should we be embarking on that and recommending to the government that we need to have a national action plan with the suggestions and measures that Ms. Thomas has identified?

[Sikander Hashmi]

Absolutely, because it's a national issue and it needs to be dealt with nationally. Of course, there are certain limits as to what the federal government would do with provincial jurisdiction and so on. At the same time, it's happening to people across the country—I don't think any part of the country is immune to this problem—so there definitely needs to be a national plan that brings together different stakeholders. I really like the previous suggestion of bringing in first ministers as well, and bringing the provinces and municipalities on board. At the end of the day, it's going to affect people across the country, and everyone has a role to play.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Do you think there should be an across-the-government analysis on existing and new policies that would be coming forward, through a lens similar to that of gender equality but based on racial equality?

I will go to Ms. Thomas first, and then Mr. Hashmi.

[Tamara Thomas]

I do. I think a racial equality lens is necessary in order to really understand the ways in which various policies and programs are impacting individuals from different racial groups.

The important thing to recognize—and really the only way you can get to this recognition is through a racial equity lens—is that each group is going to be affected differently based on how they interact with those policies. Each policy is going to have a different impact on each individual racial group, and it's important to take the time and collect the information and data in order to identify how each group is. A one-size-fits-all approach is not going to work; it's not going to cut it. That has been proven in the various ways in which the issue of racial inequity and the racialization of poverty has been dealt with—the fact that some groups benefit and some groups don't. To really understand why that's happening, you need to apply a racial equity lens.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Go ahead, Mr. Hashmi.

[Sikander Hashmi]

I agree with those comments. Also, we need to look at stakeholders and perhaps have round tables or other mechanisms that make consultations with racialized communities possible. A lot of times, if that lens is missing and their voice is not around the table, it's very easy for issues that may be very relevant to certain racialized communities to be missed. If nothing else happens, at the very least there should be a mechanism in place to have those consultations and ensure they actually happen.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

I would like to ask about data collection.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have one minute.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

A lot of the data is not collected because of the under-reporting. In less than maybe 30 seconds, could you give us some suggestions as to how we might capture those incidents?

[Tamara Thomas]

It would take 15 minutes.

I think this came up before, but I think it's important to work with community organizations, community leaders, people in different community groups who hold a position of trust within that community, and work with those individuals and those groups in order to develop a more thorough approach to how to collect data. There is a very tense relationship right now with the normal mechanisms of reporting, and there is a lot of underlying issues there that might not be able to be solved immediately.

Until we get to that point and if we get to that point, there needs to be work with the grassroots groups that are serving their communities and are hearing these complaints.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

I go now to Anju Dhillon for the Liberals. You have seven minutes, please, Ms. Dhillon.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you to both of the witnesses for being here today. Most of my questions will be for Ms. Thomas.

It always saddens me that there still exists so much discrimination and marginalization of the black population of Canada. It's mind-boggling how it still continues.

From all the statistics you mentioned—actually, lack of statistics—how many of these violent crimes against black people were perpetrated by people in positions of authority?

[Tamara Thomas]

In my view, and to be completely frank, I haven't read the entire document back to front. I've zoned in on specific sections. In the section I zoned in on in terms of the reported number of race-based crimes and violent crimes, I didn't see anything in terms of numbers of perpetration by individuals in positions of authority. That information is not something I've come across. I don't know if that's actually recorded. I don't believe there is any collection of data or stats in terms of the number or rate of crimes that are perpetrated against black communities by, for example, police officers, at least collected in any kind of consistent and regularized way, so that's difficult to identify.

The only thing I think I saw would be the number that I mentioned, which I believe was 35%—no, it was.... I won't waste time looking for it, but a large number of crimes are committed by strangers. However, there's nothing I saw in terms of people in positions of authority.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

If you do come across it, please submit it to our committee—