Evidence of meeting #2 for Canadian Heritage in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Janet Yale  Chair, Broadcasting and Telecommunications Legislative Review Panel
Monique Simard  Panel Member, Broadcasting and Telecommunications Legislative Review Panel

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

It's a particular pivot, and you want to get access from that particular pivot to what you're talking about.

Is that correct?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

You need the download to be able to do it.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Okay, thank you very much for that.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

You need the broadband width.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you for the clarification, sir.

We'll now go to Mr. Louis, for five minutes, please.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Tim Louis Liberal Kitchener—Conestoga, ON

Thank you.

Thank you very much for your time and for a very thorough report. It was well worth reading, and I appreciate your time.

Getting back to the CBC, I want to double back on what Ms. McPherson mentioned. Many people in my riding come up to me, and I'm proud to say they're defending the CBC. Once in a while, something comes up about defunding it. They tell me how much they enjoy public broadcasting, whether it's sports, historical events or arts. It's basically sharing a nation as a whole. As a microcosm, in our small community, we've had TV shows filmed there and we have a local radio show. It is wonderful to see.

I was going to ask about our relationship in supporting public media institutions compared to other countries, but Ms. McPherson, you beat me to it. Thank you.

What I want to know, then, is what kind of best practices we might learn from the countries that are investing the most in their public broadcast institutions.

4:20 p.m.

Panel Member, Broadcasting and Telecommunications Legislative Review Panel

Monique Simard

Of course, the BBC is often used as a model. Its funding system was based on a licence fee on television and radio sets. With the advancement of technology, that had to be changed, of course. It has a very extensive network. It has also set up production studios recently. We studied that model, as well as that of the Australians, the Scandinavians and the French. Each has methods we could borrow.

I'd like to follow up on what Ms. Yale said. The level of funding per capita in Canada is far below that of comparable OECD countries. In fact, there's a table in the report with those numbers. Certainly, given the resources available to CBC/Radio-Canada, it cannot do as much as other countries.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Tim Louis Liberal Kitchener—Conestoga, ON

I'm sorry; I had to wait for the translation to catch up. I took my first French lesson yesterday, but I'm not there yet.

Thank you very much.

I want to pivot possibly and talk about news and small communities, especially the disappearing newspapers in small communities. You mentioned that it kind of coincides with big media taking over, and there becomes a loss of identity, the stories of the day and those local stories.

Did you get first-hand from small communities how that affected them? Was that part of the report? Can you expand on that?

4:25 p.m.

Panel Member, Broadcasting and Telecommunications Legislative Review Panel

Monique Simard

Sure. First, we travelled across Canada. We went very far. We went up north and into the provinces. We met with a number of groups and individuals, who often told us that local and regional media have disappeared, so there is no longer any representation of their lives and what is happening in their region.

It's all about democracy. We read a study in the United States that shows that when a newspaper disappears in a town, village or small city, a few years later, the level of corruption has gone up. The local journalist is the one who keeps a close eye on what is going on in the municipal council and sees if everything is being done properly. Supporting media is a fundamental issue of democracy. We were asked a question to that effect and we tried to answer it as best we could.

Ms. Yale spoke at length about the principles we hold sacred: media and journalistic independence, and freedom of expression. We have humbly made suggestions to try to find funding models. There may be local digital media, but we still have to have the means to support them. Paper is one thing, but there is also digital. Where I live, I can attend municipal council meetings via the Internet and see what's going on. You have to have the means to do that.

I think it's very important for everyone here to know that we were extremely moved and awakened to the realities outside of the major urban centres. For example, there are the firefighters that Mr. Blaney mentioned. There are farms that are trying to get modern equipment, but cannot because the Internet connection is unreliable. We were very much made aware of this, and you will see that we talk about it very frequently in all chapters of the report.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Louis.

Now we have Mr. Waugh for five minutes, please.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Thank you, Chair.

I just want to say thank you for your report. I was there when the news conference happened a few weeks ago. I agree with you wholeheartedly about modernizing the Broadcasting Act, the telecommunications and radio.

I have a couple of questions, mainly with CRTC, since, Ms. Yale, you are vice-president of Telus, and, Ms. Simard, you're with Quebecor Fund.

It's interesting because when I look at the media—and I was there for 45 years—I see the Internet owned by Bell, which owns CTV, which owns RDS in Quebec. I see Rogers today owning Sportsnet. I see Quebecor, of which you are the chair, owning—

4:25 p.m.

Panel Member, Broadcasting and Telecommunications Legislative Review Panel

Monique Simard

I'd like to correct that.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

It says in the report here—

4:25 p.m.

Panel Member, Broadcasting and Telecommunications Legislative Review Panel

Monique Simard

I'm chair of the Quebecor Fund, which is a CRTC decision.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Okay.

Quebecor owns TVA and Videotron.

Do you see where I'm going with the conflict of interest between Internet providers and media organizations? Had you thought about this when you did your report? I look at big Ma Bell, Rogers and Quebecor, and they're all in on this. They're going to benefit more than anybody, with Mr. Darren Entwistle last week at the CRTC hearings singling out a major reduction in staff over 5G networks, which the CRTC is trying to move forward on.

I would like your thoughts on the licensing, because I'm not a big fan of the CRTC. They provide the licences and then they don't follow up. I'll give you an example. I was on this committee four years ago. We had the CRTC in the room. They had no idea that I was getting my newscast out of Toronto, even though I live in Saskatoon. That's my issue with the CRTC. They grant licences, move away and come back five years later. They never do any follow-up.

Now you would have this regulated by the CRTC? Quite frankly, they can't do their job today, and I don't see them going ahead by 2030 with this proposal you have.

4:30 p.m.

Chair, Broadcasting and Telecommunications Legislative Review Panel

Janet Yale

Well, you covered a lot of ground in that question, so—

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

I did. I only have five minutes.

4:30 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

4:30 p.m.

Chair, Broadcasting and Telecommunications Legislative Review Panel

Janet Yale

—let me try to unpack it a little bit.

It's interesting because, as you know, Telus is one of the only big players that doesn't have a content business, so I'm not sure how.... The conflict of interest is one that I really don't feel. When you look at the returns for Bell versus CTV, it's more that the money flows from Bell. All the broadcasters are in trouble financially, so it's not clear which side is benefiting, more or less, from different parts of our report. You'd have to talk to them to see on balance whether they think they did well based on our recommendations.

As for what I can tell you about the CRTC—because if you looked at my CV, you would know I worked there for seven years much earlier in my career—you're absolutely right that they issue a licence and, unless there are complaints, they may not look at that organization again until licence renewal. That's one of the problems we tried to address in our report, because with the resources they have, that's the best they can do.

We've said that the only way for it to move out of that reactive mode, which is to deal with things as they come up on the regular agenda, and to be more proactive is to have two things. One is more research capacity so they can understand what's coming and be much more proactive about it and, the other is more powers around data gathering, because they don't have the information they would need to address some of the issues that you raise, as well as enforcement powers in broadcasting like they have in telecommunications.

In order for them to do what you're talking about, I think our recommendations actually speak to the very problems you're raising in terms of more research capacity, more data-gathering powers, being more proactive, getting more regular reporting, and then being able to have the enforcement powers if there are breaches, which you can only know if you actually have the information and the capacity to monitor and evaluate as you go along.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with what you're saying, other than to say that we really do see a very important role for the CRTC in this complex digital environment to really have a much better handle about what's going on in the marketplace.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

I'm not sure that broadcasters have the utmost respect for the CRTC, if you don't mind me saying that. I know that for a fact because I worked for them. Last week, I certainly saw it at the Gatineau hearings when I saw the big telcos in front of the CRTC, so I'm not sure we're going about this in the right way. They're the kingpin because they award the licences, so you have to go down on one knee. At the same time, there is not a lot of respect for that organization in this country. I'm sorry to say that because, like you said, you once worked for them or still do, but I think as many broadcasters—

4:30 p.m.

Chair, Broadcasting and Telecommunications Legislative Review Panel

Janet Yale

That was in the 1980s.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Mr. Waugh, I'm going to ask you to sum up very quickly.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Go ahead with that.

4:30 p.m.

Panel Member, Broadcasting and Telecommunications Legislative Review Panel

Monique Simard

I'd like to say something.

You have to have a regulatory body. There is no way around it. In our report, we propose that it be changed considerably. This should partly address your criticism.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

All right. Thank you very much, everyone.

Ms. Dabrusin, you have five minutes, please.