Canadian Heritage Committee on Jan. 29th, 2021

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you for your question.

This morning, I read an excellent piece on Radio-Canada's site about how the shooter had become radicalized on social media before doing what he did on January 29. A few months ago now, we undertook a joint initiative with several departments and ministers. The Department of Canadian Heritage is working with the Department of Justice, the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, and the Department of Innovation. We are preparing to bring forward a bill that will set out a regulatory framework to control hate speech, child pornography, incitement to violence, incitement to terrorism and the non-consensual disclosure of images.

Not many countries have tackled the problem, but a few have. Meetings and discussions have been held with representatives of those countries, at both the working level and the political level. The idea is to see how we could adapt existing models to Canada's reality and needs. Just last week, I was talking to Australia's eSafety Commissioner in an effort to really understand how the country went about implementing its system and what to watch out for.

Like anyone who endeavours to introduce these types of controls, we are concerned about protecting freedom of expression. In the real world, however, we established rules over the years to control freedom of expression, through both laws and court rulings. We are working to determine how we can replicate the framework that already exists in the real world and apply it to the virtual world.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you very much, Minister, for all the work you are doing each and every day to better protect Canadians on digital platforms.

While we recognize that everyone has the right to freedom of speech, rules are in place to limit speech when it becomes hateful, offensive or racist. Social media have played a major role in amplifying hateful messages aimed at the most marginalized communities, violating their rights without being held responsible.

Could you please tell us how you plan to hold social media platforms accountable and make them answerable for the publication and distribution of unacceptable content?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

The purpose of the bill is to establish a new regulatory framework in Canada, one social media platforms will have to abide by.

A regulator will be created to enforce the new regulations and monitor the efforts made by platforms to combat hate speech in relation to the five categories I mentioned earlier. The broadcasting legislation, Bill C-10, will provide more clarity, including the various tools at the regulator's disposal to impose fines for non-compliance.

You're right. It is an issue of concern to a growing number of Canadians. As you probably know, the results of an Abacus-led survey commissioned by the Canadian Race Relations Foundation came out earlier this week. The findings show that the vast majority of Canadians have witnessed or directly experienced violence on social media. Women and racialized groups are much more likely to be targeted than other segments of the population. A very large percentage of Canadians want the government to do something.

There is no doubt. We are going to do something. We are introducing a bill soon, and we would be pleased to return to discuss the legislation in support of the committee's work.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mrs. Bessette.

Mr. Champoux, you have six minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, Ms. Laurendeau, Mr. Piché, it's a pleasure to see you again. We're always happy to have you with us to answer our questions.

Mr. Minister, you said in your opening remarks that the collection of the GST is now being imposed on large Internet service providers. The media has been calling for the implementation of regulations for content publishers for a very long time.

The last time we spoke, you said you were looking at different models. That was a long time ago. In the meantime, News Media Canada, which includes the vast majority of news content publishers, has taken a strong stand on the model they would like to see in Canada, and it's the one that would be based on the Australian model. Given the unanimity in the industry, I wonder why we're still waiting to push this idea, to implement it, to adapt it to the reality of the Canadian market.

What's holding you back, Mr. Minister?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you for your question.

Our approach to the web giants consists of three pieces, if I can put it that way. We've already introduced the first piece, Bill C-10, which concerns the cultural component. Shortly, in the spring, we'll introduce a second bill, which will deal with online hate speech, and then a third bill, which will deal with the media issue.

You asked us what's holding us back. As you know, as legislators, we can't copy and paste a model that works in one country and import it to Canada. Every country has its own laws, regulations, institutions and practices, whether cultural or legal. Models really need to be adapted to reflect these differences. For example, we have a free-trade agreement with the United States, but not every country in the world does. It's important to realize that there are countries that, in the space of just one year, have decided to regulate the web giants with respect to culture, online hate and media. I know of only one that hasn't, and that's Canada.

Other countries are doing different things. For instance, just before the holidays, Britain passed its online hate speech law. Canada isn't the first, but it is certainly among the first in the world to address these issues, and to do so on these three fronts at the same time.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Minister, are you able to tell me if you have a formula that can be implemented? I understand that you're talking about everything that's coming up and all the issues around the Broadcasting Act, social media management, web giants and the rest. Meanwhile, regional weeklies are suffering and closing down. It was already critical before the pandemic; you're well aware of all this. These weeklies are wondering why this law isn't being passed as a priority so that they can get royalties from those who distribute their content and profit from it.

Have you identified a model that is being worked on for implementation? At the moment, there's a great void. Can we tell publishers that something is coming soon?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I don't agree with you, it isn't a void. We recognize that there's a problem, and have done so for a long time. That's why we've given hundreds of millions of dollars to the media. We started doing that before the pandemic, and we continue to do so. We've even increased that support to media in times of pandemic. It's true that for some media, it's difficult, but for others it's different. You may have seen, as I did, the results of La Presse published recently. For some, it's going pretty well, despite everything. This won't prevent us from acting as quickly as possible.

As you know, in a parliamentary system in a democratic society, you can't pass laws that have been drafted hastily. It takes a few months. A few months ago, I announced that we were working on this and that we'd be introducing a bill this spring. It's going to be done in virtually record time.

Is there one model that we like more than another? France and Australia have taken two very different approaches to tackling the same problem. France has focused instead on copyright by creating the notion of neighbouring rights. Australia, on the other hand, relied instead on market forces and recognized that there was an imbalance in the market. It created a forum for economic arbitration, so to speak.

These are two very different models. We are working with our colleagues at Canadian Heritage to determine which model would be the most relevant and would yield the best possible results, given our laws, regulations and institutions.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Minister, I have mere seconds left.

Could you tell me when this year it will be introduced and set up for the media in Canada?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

It should be this spring. We want to introduce this bill during the current parliamentary session.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you.

Ms. McPherson, you have six minutes, please.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you so much.

It's nice to see everyone. This is our first meeting of this committee. We are looking at the relationship between the heritage department and Facebook. I want to thank the minister, the deputy minister and the senior assistant deputy minister for joining us today.

I'm going to stick to the questions that are related to the study, so I'll ask a few questions around that, if you wouldn't mind.

First of all, could you tell us whether, since 2015, your department has agreed to circulate job offers from other web giants such as Google, Amazon or Netflix? If so, do you know how many times your department has done this?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

As I said in my introductory remarks, I've been minister for a little over a year, but my experience with the Canadian civil service preceded my arrival in politics. As many of you know, I was an environmental lobbyist for many years.

We have one of the best civil services that this world has to offer. It's one of the most professional, talented and dedicated. I knew that before coming into politics. I didn't know the ministry of heritage so much. I knew others, but my previous experience and my actual experience just confirmed what I knew from the outside. That's the first thing I'd like to say.

In terms of a specific job offer that would have been sent to the ministry, I don't have that in front of me. Perhaps Hélène or Jean-Stéphen might be able to provide a bit more clarity on that.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

This is not a practice that is vastly happening within the Department of Canadian Heritage. There is sharing of information for professional development purposes. There are some jobs within the government that are sometimes.... In fact, in recent years, for the pandemic where we have sent these appels à tous or calls for everybody—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I really do hate to be rude, Madam, but we're now three minutes into my six minutes and I haven't had an answer yet. I'm wondering if it has been done and how many times. I'm sorry.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

It's not a practice that is happening in the department.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It hasn't happened any time, then.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

No.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay, so that hasn't happened. Political staff have never circulated a job offer from Facebook, Amazon, Netflix or Google since the minister took office as the Minister of Heritage.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

I wouldn't know about political staff, but from public servants, this is not a practice that has been happening.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Okay, thank you.

Minister, when you learned that your executive director had agreed to share a job offer from Facebook, did you investigate whether this practice violated the values and ethics code for the public sector? If you did, what were the conclusions of that, please?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I did ask the department to look into the matter. Obviously this is not political staff. Since it's someone from the ministry, I turn to the deputy minister for answers on that.

Hélène, you could provide the member with the response that you gave me on that.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

I reviewed a fax associated with that email as a first step. I can assure the committee that we came to the conclusion that sharing publicly available information is not a reprehensible act.

I would also add that we are taking to heart issues regarding values and ethics. We have a very solid framework of prevention and follow-up on those matters. I am very confident that my staff are meeting the highest standards with respect to conflict of interest, values and ethics.