Evidence of meeting #12 for Canadian Heritage in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was facebook.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Hélène Laurendeau  Deputy Minister, Department of Canadian Heritage
Jean-Stéphen Piché  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Cultural Affairs, Department of Canadian Heritage
Kevin Chan  Global Director and Head of Public Policy, Facebook Canada, Facebook Inc.
Marc Dinsdale  Head, Media Partnerships, Facebook Canada, Facebook Inc.
Rachel Curran  Policy Manager, Facebook Canada, Facebook Inc.

2:15 p.m.

Policy Manager, Facebook Canada, Facebook Inc.

Rachel Curran

If I could just respond to that, though, I think MP Aitchison's question is a good one. It's about respect on both sides.

Facebook's community standards actually set out rules for engagement on our platform. They deal with bullying, with harassment, with disrespectful conduct, and we set out very clearly what is and isn't allowed on the platform.

I think you're absolutely right. We need to get at this question of uncivil and disrespectful debate. We are at least attempting to do that with our community standards and enforcement against those, and we look forward to further engagement with the government on how to make sure we're drawing the right line there.

2:15 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Thanks very much.

Mr. Chair, that's all I have. I'm happy to share my time with Mr. Shields if he has questions as well.

2:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Mr. Shields, you have one minute.

2:20 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Well, I think it goes back to what was referred to quickly, and I'll go to that.

When the oversight committee has overturned four of five, who do you have in that background group? Do you have legal advisers? Who is in that group of people that you have making the decisions to take down...?

You're making decisions in a grey area that obviously is going to be a huge challenge.

2:20 p.m.

Global Director and Head of Public Policy, Facebook Canada, Facebook Inc.

Kevin Chan

I think you're absolutely right. This is a very complicated and very difficult task; we have to appropriately moderate speech and govern speech on our platform. Thank you for that nuanced position on this. It is very hard.

As you can see, despite the fact that we have 35,000 people who are doing content moderation around the world, despite the fact that we spend billions of dollars a year on automated systems to detect this, and despite the fact that we have policy people who construct these community standards and then try to interpret them locally, such as the team you have before you, you are right that not everyone will agree with us. Some people say we take too much down; some people say we don't take enough down. It is perhaps sobering to see the Oversight Board, our own independent oversight board, has overturned four out of five decisions.

2:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you very much.

Ms. Ien, for five minutes, please.

2:20 p.m.

Liberal

Marci Ien Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chan, Mr. Dinsdale and Ms. Curran, thank you so much for joining us.

I want to delve a little further into something that my colleagues have addressed today. On a day where we commemorate six lives lost in a Quebec City mosque, in a week where through International Holocaust Remembrance Day we observe the lives lost, and a year where we have seen anti-Black racism at the fore, I want to ask a bit more about hate speech and understand how Facebook delineates between hate speech and freedom of speech.

2:20 p.m.

Global Director and Head of Public Policy, Facebook Canada, Facebook Inc.

Kevin Chan

I think you've hit the nail on the head. This is perhaps the hardest one for us. That is because speech is nuanced, so we do want to make sure we take a nuanced approach, that we don't overcensor people. Obviously the way we look at it is if there is speech that is directed at a particular group, that is an attack on a particular group, whether by race or by sexual orientation, for example, then those things would be prohibited by our community standards.

I would also say, though, what we've discovered as we work through these issues is that in fact, depending which community you're talking about and what the local contexts are, sometimes people might actually use code words, or even emoticons, to represent something. It would be a slur if we knew it were a slur, but it actually is known in the local community, not more broadly to the public. That's the real challenge. The work we're undertaking now is to work with local partners to better understand what are the kinds of specific words in specific communities that are equally damaging, hurtful and hateful and try to remove those.

One example, I can tell you, is the word spelled S-Q-U-A-W, which is a word that's used in a derogatory manner to attack indigenous women. That is one of the words that we have through our consultations picked up and used to refine our list of slurs so that we can more properly enforce our community standards in Canada.

2:20 p.m.

Liberal

Marci Ien Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Mr. Chan, it's good to hear that Facebook is involved in that important work.

I'm going to veer off in another direction right now and ask about privacy and protection of personal information of the users of Facebook.

2:20 p.m.

Global Director and Head of Public Policy, Facebook Canada, Facebook Inc.

Kevin Chan

I think on the privacy front we have been clear, and I indicated in the opening statement as well, that we support stronger privacy legislation. That should include financial penalties for those who are going to be in non-compliance. I believe the government has tabled such legislation. It is obviously for parliamentarians to decide whether it is the right configuration to become law, but I think we have been on the record saying that we support strong privacy legislation.

2:25 p.m.

Liberal

Marci Ien Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, those are the questions that I have. I'm willing to share any time left with any of my colleagues who need it, or I will hand it back over to you.

2:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

You have approximately one minute and 15 seconds left.

Mr. Housefather.

2:25 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Thanks very much, Ms. Ien.

I want to come back to a couple of other questions that I didn't get a chance to ask.

Facebook recognized that there were foreign actors who sought to interfere in the U.S. elections in both 2016 and 2020. Is Facebook aware of any foreign actors currently seeking to influence the next Canadian election?

2:25 p.m.

Global Director and Head of Public Policy, Facebook Canada, Facebook Inc.

Kevin Chan

Obviously we had that top of mind for the 2019 election. I can tell you that to date we have not found any such foreign interference or coordinated inauthentic behaviour on our platform with respect to the 2019 federal election.

We are certainly turning our minds to the next election, whenever it may come. We have already begun conversations with the various lawful authorities to be ready. Again, however, we don't have any specific information that would lead us to believe that the posture in 2021 or 2022 would be different from that of 2019.

2:25 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

In the last U.S. election, Facebook assisted in registration of voters and recruitment of poll workers and helped to provide voter information. Mr. Zuckerberg and his wife actually donated $400 million to help support safe voting.

What is Facebook planning to do by way of supporting voting in Canada? If there's $400 million somewhere to give to Elections Canada, I'm sure they would be very grateful.

2:25 p.m.

Global Director and Head of Public Policy, Facebook Canada, Facebook Inc.

Kevin Chan

I don't think I'm in a position yet, obviously, to announce what our integrity measures will be for the next federal election, but I can tell you that the team has already turned its mind to this subject, both internally and externally with external partners.

Again I think this speaks to the need for us to work across sectors to make sure that we get what we all want, which is free and fair elections.

2:25 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Thank you.

2:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Mr. Housefather, I'm sure the Minister of National Revenue appreciates your enthusiasm on that point.

Mr. Champoux, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

2:25 p.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chan, I am going to go back to the issue of hate speech and Facebook's good conduct, as you state it, while you are still asking the government to establish some regulation. The Criminal Code governs behaviour a lot and serves as our guide for the ways in which we behave. It should also apply to our behaviour in social media.

If we want to enforce the Criminal Code, or any other regulations, we must also be able to catch the guilty. On Facebook and on a number of social media, many people use false profiles, false names and false identities. They are almost impossible to find.

If we wanted to enforce the Criminal Code, for example, would Facebook have ways to identify users with fake profiles, or those hiding behind a identity abroad, or even a bot? Do you have ways of identifying people?

2:25 p.m.

Global Director and Head of Public Policy, Facebook Canada, Facebook Inc.

Kevin Chan

There are a couple of things on this.

“Fake accounts” is the term we use at Facebook. Fake accounts are prohibited on Facebook. They are a violation of our community standards, and we do remove them. We've removed, in the last quarter, well over one billion fake accounts.

We believe we are finding more than 99% of fake accounts before anybody interacts with them. This is absolutely something we want to work very hard at and get even better at.

I think your question is with respect to law enforcement. Where there are law enforcement entities that have the lawful authority to request information about particular users and they are exercising that lawful authority, it is absolutely the case that we will comply with and work with them.

2:25 p.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

So with fake accounts, do you just wait for complaints about them? For example, my neighbour has three Facebook accounts under different names and she is active on all kinds of platforms. If, at some stage, she went off the rails—if you don't mind me using that expression—you would be able to find her easily. I could report her fake profile and you would be able to locate it. Is that correct?

2:30 p.m.

Global Director and Head of Public Policy, Facebook Canada, Facebook Inc.

Kevin Chan

If you report a fake account to us, we're happy to investigate it and remove it—if it indeed is a fake account.

2:30 p.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chan.

2:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you very much.

Mr. Boulerice, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

2:30 p.m.

NDP

Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chan, earlier, you said that you did not have the amount of income tax that Facebook paid in 2019-2020 at hand. Would you agree to provide that amount to the committee?