Evidence of meeting #43 for Canadian Heritage in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crtc.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jacques Maziade  Legislative Clerk
Thomas Owen Ripley  Director General, Broadcasting, Copyright and Creative Marketplace Branch, Department of Canadian Heritage
Philippe Méla  Legislative Clerk

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Welcome, everyone, to C-10's clause-by-clause consideration. Welcome back.

Before I get to resuming the debate we had, which was on CPC-9.5, I just wanted to let everybody know that there's been an addition. I think it's in your an inbox. A new amendment has been proposed that comes from Mr. Housefather.

If you look at the reference number, the last three numbers are 710. It's going to be labelled as LIB-9.1.

Now, where does that go? I'm glad you asked. I hope I get the page number right. It's going to be after CPC-11.2 and before the next clause, which is PV-26. I think that would now be page 106.

Mr. Maziade, did I get the page number right?

3:35 p.m.

Jacques Maziade Legislative Clerk

Yes and no. Page 105 would be G-14, but then we have three amendments in between, which are CPC-11, CPC-11.1 and CPC-11.2. LIB-9.1, which was just added this morning, should go at the end of the list. It's just before PV-26 and page 107.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you. I'll leave page numbers out, because it can be confusing, I know.

Again, that's a new LIB-9.1 from Mr. Housefather. It goes after CPC-11.2 and before PV-26.

Is there a need for any more clarification on that?

I have Mr. Shields. However, that being said, I think Mr. Aitchison had a question he wanted to raise.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm just wondering. At the end of this 54 minutes, does anything dramatic happen or do we just go back to what we were doing?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

I'll explain when we get there.

I'm going to recite what has been passed in the House and cite the instructions from the House. We'll go from there on the voting procedure. Is that okay?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Okay, thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

This is a learning process for all. I've been here 18 years and I haven't seen it.

(On clause 7)

Mr. Shields, you have the floor.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We were in the middle of a debate on an amendment. I appreciated hearing from Mr. Louis—I really did—expressing his opinion and his desires for artists, performers and creators. It's great to hear opinions from committee members about the things that are meaningful to them.

I'm not sure of the reference about big tech. I like all performers, and whatever we can do.... The other side of it is performers, and I'm not one of them. I'm not a creator, but what I am is a person who buys tickets. I'm one of those people who really appreciate artists and creators of all different kinds, and I'm the one out there as a consumer who really supports them by buying tickets and wants to support them because I appreciate what they do. I purchase pieces of art, or admire the statue of David in Florence and line up for hours to do so.

Then there's the other side of it, those people who really want to support and appreciate art by buying the tickets to do it. We need to remember the consumers out there, because without those consumers to appreciate.... If the tree falls down in the forest and there's nobody there to hear it, did the tree make any noise when it fell?

I really do appreciate Mr. Louis bringing his opinions and concerns, though. On big tech, we've all agreed that there's going to be taxation. That hasn't been up for debate for a long time, and there's going to be a support of the culture side of it. We've done reports on how short a lot of that is out there in support, but we have a bill here that at times, I think, doesn't hit the mark. Big tech's money isn't the answer that we're working on with this amendment. It's freedom of speech for creators and performers, but again, I'm not one of those. I'm one of those who will pay the price to see, listen and appreciate those who do create. That's the part we have to remember that they drive, what it is that those people can do, and that's the part that facilitates their moving forward and being able to use their talents and express them in many different ways. Freedom of speech is very important for two sides: One is the consumer and the other is the artist.

Again, thank you, Mr. Louis, for expressing your opinion. I appreciate those people on the committee who will and do express them. We learn a lot more from each other when we take the time to talk about what is meaningful to us in our particular roles outside of this forum we are enclosed in at the moment.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Ms. Harder, you have the floor.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you, Chair.

I want to take a moment to speak to the motion. Obviously, there are a lot of things going on here, but at the heart of it, I think it has to do with artists or creators and discoverability online, and making sure that any regulations that are put in place do not infringe upon their charter rights or the charter rights of those who might view that content.

It's interesting to me that in this committee, when proposed section 4.1 was removed, there wasn't a unanimous call to hear from the artists. I think that's very sad because their voices have been ignored and they are going to be largely impacted by this piece of legislation. There's this whole world of digital first creators whose voices haven't been invited to the table. We are here at the 11th hour before this legislation gets rammed through and we haven't even heard from them.

How sad is it to not hear from this group that is going to be dramatically impacted by this legislation?

That being the case, I mentioned earlier at this committee that I've taken it upon myself to reach out to these individuals and hear their voices. There's one in particular who I would like to bring to this committee's attention as we continue to consider the amendment that is on the table by my colleague Mr. Rayes.

This is from an organization called Skyship Entertainment. This letter was written and submitted to me just within the last couple of days.

It is from someone by the name of Morghan Fortier. This individual is the CEO of Skyship Entertainment, which is an award-winning entertainment company owned and operated in Canada. Of course, they are using non-traditional media platforms.

I'm going to read it into the record, because again, I believe it's very important for this committee to consider the words of this individual. She writes:

As one of Canada’s top two YouTube creators, we are a proud example of how Canadian content can be successfully exported to the rest of the world. Our educational content enriches the lives of over 30 million viewers around the world every single day—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

One moment, please, Ms. Harder.

Mr. Rayes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Excuse me, Mr. Chair.

The last thing I want to do is interrupt my colleague, but I want to make sure I understand the interpretation. Since the interpreters don't have the document in front of them, would it be possible for my colleague to read a little slower?

June 10th, 2021 / 3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Mr. Champoux, go ahead.

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

Mr. Chair, in the same vein, I would invite my colleague Mr. Rayes to wear his headset and use the appropriate equipment to facilitate the interpreters' work.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Indeed. That's sage advice on both counts.

Mr. Rayes, I didn't even notice whether you had it on.

Thank you, Mr. Champoux.

Mr. Rayes also brings up a good point about the pace of the reading.

Ms. Harder, please go ahead.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Again, Morghan Fortier writes:

Our educational content enriches the lives of over 30 million viewers around the world every single day on YouTube alone. Additionally, we’re one of the world’s top children’s music artists and our content can be found on streaming services such as Amazon Prime, Roku and Tubi to name a few.

We produce nearly all of our content in-house at our Toronto production studio where we employ over 30 writers, musicians, designers, animators and puppeteers. We operate with no debt, no investors, and to date we have never received any of the government support that traditional Canadian TV broadcasters and producers benefit from.

I am a proud supporter of Canadian content and have seen first-hand the quality that we can produce here. However, I am greatly distressed by Bill C-10.

Despite our prominence we have been given zero opportunity to participate in any discussions regarding this legislation, and neither have any of our digital content contemporaries. This is distressing because Bill C-10 directly affects digital content creators, but it is being written by people who don’t understand how digital platforms work and without any consultation of those it directly impacts. The proposed bill gives no consideration to the long-term growth of the companies that have evolved from the digital landscape.

I worked for close to fifteen years producing series for TV broadcasters - the traditional broadcast industry. Having moved to the digital side of the industry in 2015, I understand how overwhelming this sector can be. But your lack of understanding cannot be an excuse to inhibit our industry's growth. Digital content creators are a vital and growing part of the broadcast industry, and our input should be mandatory.

I do believe that government investment in quality content could lead to a strengthened Canadian Broadcast industry, but Bill C-10 does not do this. Rather than the promotion and elevation, it focuses on restriction and isolation. Rather than introducing Canadian content to a global audience abroad, it focuses on removing choice from our Canadian audience here at home.

You have an opportunity to raise our traditional media companies to the standard of success our digital producers are experiencing. Instead you are choosing to antiquate digital companies. This is a step back, a step inward, and a step in the wrong direction.

Mr. Chair, this letter was written to members of this committee, and I was asked to share it today. It is with pleasure that I do so because this individual and this company raise a really valid point, and it's one that needs to be considered by all members of this committee.

I understand that we've had our squabbles, and I understand that this process might feel frustrated, but I think what needs to be rightly understood and stated here is that there is a legislative process in place within the House of Commons by which a bill is considered, clause by clause, statement by statement, and it is evaluated to see whether or not it makes for good legislation. That standard, of course, is going to be somewhat different for each party, because each individual comes to the table and views this legislation through a different lens. I understand that.

What needs to also, I believe, be carried with due weight is the fact that there are tens of thousands of creators who are going to be impacted by this legislation and their voices have not been considered.

It has been said that this legislation is going to level the playing field. I would propose to the committee that it will indeed level the playing field, but rather than calling traditional broadcasters up to the higher standard where digital first creators exist, it instead insists that those digital first creators be punished for their success and be diminished, that they actually be put down to a lower standard.

I don't think that's what it means to be Canadian. I don't think that is or should be the purpose of putting legislation in place, that we would downgrade people, that we would enforce a standard that lessens their ability to create and access an audience. Instead, why wouldn't we insist on the traditional broadcasters becoming better, coming up and learning from digital first creators.

Doesn't that seem innovative and creative, and doesn't that contribute to the e-commerce world the current government said it's committed to creating and supporting?

Right now, this legislation goes after those individuals who have talent, who have exercised an entrepreneurial spirit, who have been innovative and creative, who have taken risks and who have put themselves out there and found new ways to promote their skill, their talent, their ability and their ideas and to elicit an audience organically.

This legislation will empower the CRTC, or even call upon the CRTC, to put regulations in place that will impose algorithms on these artists. These algorithms will move their content or their creativity up or down in a queue. It will determine whether they get showed favouritism. Do they get to be in first place or do they get to be in 20th place? Maybe they get to be in 200th place. Maybe they appear on the first page when you search something on YouTube, or maybe they just get to be on page 27 where they'll never be found.

For the government to dictate that is extremely detrimental to the industry and to those artists who have so effectively invested their skill, their time, their talent and their money in order to be successful on these new platforms, this new way of being able to promote material, ideas or a skill, talent or ability.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order. We're discussing an amendment about independent legal opinions. I wonder when we're going to get to the part about independent legal opinions, because we are nowhere close at this point.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin.

There are no time constraints as to when people take the floor, as we all now know. I appreciate that, yes, it is about independent legal opinions tying into the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, particularly section 2(b). Ms. Harder is talking about online undertakings per se. I can only assume that this will tie into the amendment as we go further, but again, there are no time limits as to when she can do that.

Ms. Harder, with that in mind, the floor is yours.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Chair, thank you for being so gracious with Ms. Dabrusin and helping her understand the credibility of my argument.

This has to do with charter rights. This has to do with discoverability. This has to do with algorithms. This has to do with regulations. I'm talking about creators, and I understand that the members of this committee seem to be uncomfortable, for whatever reason, talking about the greatness that exists within the Canadian people who have determined to be creators on these digital first platforms.

I'm unsure as to why that discomfort exists. I'm unsure as to why the members of this committee have refused to hear their voices. I'm unsure as to why the members of the government would like to force this piece of legislation through without first considering those who are going to be impacted by it in negative ways.

I can only assume that there is some alternative agenda at play here, because I don't know why else a government would wish to punish a good section of our population who, again, have invested the time, talent, money and energy into being productive citizens, into being able to promote material that Canadians are accessing freely and enjoying.

I'll also mention that they're creating an income for themselves, many of them a full-time income. More than 25,000 of those individuals who are Canadian are producing an income of over $100,000 a year. It's amazing. I'm just so baffled by the fact that we're not actually celebrating that as a committee. I'm baffled by a government that started out by saying they were all for seeing the expansion of e-commerce, yet this bill is a direct attack on that. It's a mystery to me.

Here we are, with a few minutes left before the five hours are up, before the gag order takes full effect, before my voice and the voices of my Conservative colleagues on this committee are quelched, but most importantly, we have a few minutes left before the voices of these tens of thousands of creators are wiped out, silenced, put into a black hole, before the government implements regulatory measures that are either going to move them up in the queue or down in the queue, show them favouritism or punish them for their success, determine who gets to succeed and who doesn't. It's a sad day. I'll end there.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Mr. Champoux, you have the floor.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will take a few moments to offer my opinion on this amendment. We are indeed discussing an amendment.

I'm going to have a question or two for our friends in the department, particularly Mr. Ripley.

First of all, I want to commend the member for Lethbridge for listening to the artists. We can see that she's sensitive to the artists' cause.

However, when she says that we haven't listened to the artists, that we haven't heard them, I'd like to point out that the artists we're talking to are represented by associations such as the Union des artistes, the Association québécoise de l'industrie du disque and the Association des professionnels de l'édition musicale. These are recognized and important associations. They are not lobbies; they are also unions and groups representing artists.

She talks about artists who, in her view, are in niches and stuck in the nineties. Yet the vast majority of these artists are using electronic platforms to distribute their art. So these artists are not so out of touch, these artists are not so far removed from the ones she's talking about, who she feels we should have listened to.

Furthermore, the artists she's talking about who she feels we should have listened to are often YouTubers, people who have platforms or channels on which they post content. Yet, these folks are not subject to the regulation proposed in Bill C‑10. That's one of the questions Mr. Ripley has answered a number of times.

It's easy to build a series of arguments out of falsehoods, to spin it all out of proportion and make a big deal of it. You have to be careful, you have to say real things too, and you have to speak to the real world.

We're talking about 200,000 artists represented by associations like the ones I just mentioned. These 200,000 artists do not have niches and are not stuck in the nineties. These are artists who would have deserved a much more heartfelt apology than what we just heard from the member for Lethbridge, based on the comments.

Having said that, I'd like to once again ask Mr. Ripley about the amendment we're talking about here.

Isn't this request that we would make in adopting CPC‑9.5 simply a way to make the CRTC's job much more cumbersome? Won't this amendment only complicate things, when they are already pretty clear in the bill we're in the process of passing?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Go ahead, Mr. Ripley.

3:55 p.m.

Thomas Owen Ripley Director General, Broadcasting, Copyright and Creative Marketplace Branch, Department of Canadian Heritage

Thank you for the question, Mr. Champoux.

I would say that the proposed amendment will put a heavier burden on the CRTC, because for every decision, every order and every regulation, the CRTC will have to seek an outside legal opinion and then publish it on its website and in the Canada Gazette. I believe that's what is proposed.

Again, it's not a question of whether or not the CRTC is subject to the Charter; obviously it is. Obviously, too, recourse is available should anyone wish to challenge a decision made by the CRTC.

If this amendment carries, it will surely increase the burden on the CRTC, because it will require it to seek a legal opinion for each of its decisions and then publish it in theCanada Gazette.