Canadian Heritage Committee on June 21st, 2021

[Marci Ien, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, thank you so much, and I send special thanks to our witnesses for joining us here today.

Mr. Degen, I noticed that your hand was up, so I want to give you the floor and then proceed from there. Please feel free to say what you wanted to.

[John Degen]

I appreciate that very much, Ms. Ien.

I just wanted to elaborate a bit on what Roanie was saying about why we haven't had this seemingly simple solution yet. I think it's because on the education side they were convinced to take a huge gamble—to roll the dice—and with every passing year their bill gets larger and larger and becomes scarier and scarier. I think we're looking at a sector that is very reluctant to go backwards at this point, to go back to a situation that is only just and only fair, because they have done this gigantic gamble.

[Marci Ien, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Degen, thanks for that.

I actually wanted to ask you about something you said. You said, “published work comes with a price” and that it's a price that should be paid.

What price has been paid? I am asking because that's not happening right now. Can you paint a picture for us?

[John Degen]

We're The Writers' Union of Canada. We surveyed our members about their income—not just our members, but writers across the spectrum—and what we found was that there has been a sharp decline in income in the roughly 10 years since this exception was put in place.

Incomes are down 27% just in the last three or four years, and down as much as 78% over the last 20 years. That's not all attributable to education not paying its bills, but it's a huge part of it for sure.

[Marci Ien, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Degen, thank you for that.

Ms. McNicoll, I want to go to you now and thank you for your books. I have nieces and a daughter who quite enjoy them, so thank you so very much.

I have a question, though, because you talked about future voices. You talked about a granddaughter who you said wants to be a writer, but that you'll tell her she should get into law instead. To me, that is heartbreaking, because we need more creative people. We need more writers in our country. Writers are to be celebrated at every turn, and I'm not just saying that because I'm one too; I believe that to my core.

Tell me more about what you're seeing with regard to young people, the young voices, outside of your granddaughter, people who I am sure you have talked to, readers of your books. Tell me more about where things stand with them, because what happens right now directly impacts them and will into the future.

[Sylvia McNicoll]

First off, regarding the author visit, as I said, back when I started and the Copyright Collective started, we also had whole language. There was a huge focus on kids reading regular novels to teach them grammar and spelling and to enjoy them, and as I said, we went into the schools daily.

There is a technological shift too. We want to be makerspace and we want to be coding, so the heroic author, the author who comes into the school, is not coming there and there aren't these huge festivals. However, I still get snail mail and fan letters, and kids still want to be writers. The reason I showed you Orson's letter is so that I can write to him and say I showed his letter in Parliament. I am still encouraging them to be writers, but perhaps they can be lawyers part time.

In terms of the impact, the kids don't know anything about copyright, and I will say that the teachers don't either. They feel that they are doing it. In my K-to-12 sector, we're not that digital. The kids can get our books online in the library; They don't. They still need hard copies. As I said, my indigenous friends don't have strong Internet. In K to 12, we're still very much using book books and photocopying.

I think parents want to pay the $2.41 so that children's literature is still Canadian and speaks to them. As to our future voices, we'll see. We'll have to see about that. Will there be fewer authors in the school and fewer books, and just floppy paper? I don't know.

Did I answer you? I'm sorry. I go off on tangents.

[Marci Ien, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I love your tangents, and you did quite well. Thank you so much.

Mr. Rollans, you too talked about future voices, but you said this has been a blow to confidence and capacity, a blow to opportunity to build, and you ended your statement by saying that we cannot wait.

Why can't we wait to make changes?

[Glenn Rollans]

Thanks very much for the question.

Two simple parts should be answered. One is that, as John Degen alluded to, many years have gone by since the education sector abandoned its collective licences. The direct revenues from those licences are now in arrears by about $150 million. Every year that goes by adds about $30 million to that licensing non-payment, or the tariff non-payment for institutions that don't access a voluntary licence.

On top of that, a company such as mine hopes to sell not to libraries, as Mr. Landon was referencing, but to students. We sell teaching and learning materials for the classrooms, and my opportunity to do that if the environment is one where copyright compliance officers in universities work in fact to make sure that they are not paying to use copyright but instead work—

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you—

[Glenn Rollans]

Thanks very much, Mr. Simms.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

I apologize. I should have mentioned at the beginning that if you hear me say "Thank you", I give you the flexibility to finish your sentence. It doesn't mean you have to end right away. I think I unintentionally did that to Mr. Perro as well, so I apologize.

If you hear me say "Thank you", just sum up your thought very quickly. We have to get on to the next questioner.

Speaking of which, go ahead.

[Glenn Rollans]

Very quickly, we lose the opportunity to sell original resources as well as to license.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you.

Mr. Champoux, you may go ahead. You have six minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

A great big thank you to all the witnesses for joining us today. This meeting is both essential and enlightening.

I would like to begin by saying hello to Mr. Perro.

Mr. Perro, last time we saw each other—and this may be far in your memory—was on the set of my cooking show Qu'est-ce qui mijote? You left an impression on my whole team with your thundering and contagious laugh. We remembered it fondly. Your good humour also made everyone happy. However, the topic of our discussion today is not really something that puts writers or anyone involved in publishing in a good mood.

Access Copyright's report, which we have looked at, mentions a study from the Writers' Union of Canada. That study focused on writers and their average income. Since 1998, their income has dropped by [Technical difficulty—Editor]. The report mentions that, on average, writers apparently make about $9,500 a year.

Are you feeling that fact in the community? I would like you to answer my question specifically concerning Quebec.

How are our writers doing in this current context?

[Bryan Perro]

I cannot tell you how people who are part of the Writers' Union of Canada or Quebec writers are doing, but I can talk to you about the people I come across.

Those people have been suffering for years. They have often questioned their desire to write. They have thought twice before deciding to continue writing. A huge amount of time and work goes into writing a novel. What is more, as we know, it is not a profitable endeavour.

Mr. Champoux, do you know that Quebec authors sell 350 books on average per year? That average takes into account the 1.7 million books I have sold, and it also includes the books of known successful authors.

Year after year, 40,000 new titles in French are released in Quebec annually. I don't even want to think about what is released in English around the world and in the rest of Canada. Clearly, people like me, who are managing to make a good living, are privileged. The fact that authors do not receive at least a little something to encourage them has a dramatic impact on authors' writing process.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I found something you brought up in your opening remarks very interesting.

You said that the average is 350. So this means that the sales of your two first books were really below the average, even below half of the average.

[Bryan Perro]

I was not doing the series [Inaudible—Editor].

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

You lowered the average, but you recovered nicely afterwards, and so much the better.

What I am getting at is how important investing in culture is, and you talked about that.

We just completed a study on Bill C‑10, where we were trying to showcase the value of our artists and content creators. We often hear the rhetoric that artists are living off grants and not bringing in any money. But that is completely false.

I would like to hear your thoughts on this. You said that investing in culture is profitable in terms of the big picture. However, that message is not getting across.

[Bryan Perro]

It is profitable because we have a cultural industry. That industry is profitable, and it brings in money. Aside from that, there is a serious problem in Quebec, just as in Canada. I am talking about intellectual poverty.

All you have to do to see this is look at social networks. Parliamentarians who use social networks can see that intellectual poverty is a real issue. There are two pills for overcoming intellectual poverty: education and culture.

Authors help in that respect by imbuing our population with culture, so that people can have a better life, develop their creativity and intelligence, and be able to tackle complicated issues through thinking that is not simple, that is also complicated. That mostly comes from literature. Literature is produced by authors.

There you have it.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I would also like to address Ms. Levy.

What has been your state of mind throughout this whole adventure?

I began my parliamentary career in 2019, and we held a meeting shortly after with you and Copibec representatives on this situation in universities. We produced “Shifting Paradigms”, a report that presented fairly clear and easy to implement recommendations. More than a year and a half has gone by, and practically nothing has been done. So we have sent letters to the minister.

Ms. Levy, have those letters provoked some sort of a response?

Have you had an opportunity to move your file forward? Are you under the impression that you are getting closer to the goal?

[Roanie Levy]

I hope we will achieve the goal soon.

You are asking me what my state of mind has been. What I find unfortunate is that we have been trying to move this file forward for almost 10 years. If the government does not get involved, we will have another 10 years ahead of us. Whether we win or lose in the Supreme Court, I don't doubt that we will get involved in another dispute to, once again, try to clarify the fair dealing guidelines. It is absolutely necessary for the government to get involved and make clear amendments to the Copyright Act.

What I find very encouraging is that we do have a simple solution in the recommendations laid out in “Shifting Paradigms” and that we have the support of all the opposition parties. Thank you once again, Martin Champoux, and other representatives who have written to Minister Guilbault.

The third thing I find encouraging is that there is an opportunity to make those changes soon. The Copyright Act is not often amended. However, that will have to be done by December 2022. A bill will soon look to amend the legislation related to the Canada—United States—Mexico Agreement. That will be the perfect opportunity to end this conflict and re-establish a partnership between the publishing industry and the education sector.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

We will be there.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Ms. McPherson for six minutes, please.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

This has been very interesting. I am a relatively new member to this committee, so I was not part of the study that was undertaken in May 2019. I hadn't been elected yet.

It is concerning and worrisome that so little has happened since that study was undertaken, because we have those recommendations in front of us. I would like to begin by asking a few questions of my fellow Edmontonian who is joining us today. I'd like to ask Mr. Rollans a few questions.

In the conversation today, we've been spending a lot of time talking about the situation in Quebec and what that means for writers in Quebec. I would like to get a sense from your perspective, knowing that we're both in Edmonton at the moment, of the situation in the rest of Canada. How is it different in the rest of Canada from what it is in Quebec?

[Glenn Rollans]

It's better in Quebec. Quebec is a stronger provincial supporter of its cultural industries and artists. At the moment, schools, colleges and universities are all licensed in the province of Quebec. That means if my work is copied in Quebec, I get paid. Outside of Quebec, almost no schools, colleges and universities are licensed. If Mr. Perro's work is copied outside of Quebec, he doesn't get paid. That is really unacceptable in our federation.